It would seem to me that it'd be better to have a full-orbed understanding of war and not limit ourselves to understanding only the savagery of war -- if we're really going to make an effort to educate ourselves. To focus on one aspect would have the effect of promoting a bias within ourselves. That's all academic, however. Perhaps it is arrogance on my part, but I feel that I already have a pretty good understanding of the savagery of war, without ever seeing the video. I think the only thing the video serves is to inflame passions, not to educate the somehow uninformed.
Who here is talking about *limiting* ourselves to understanding only one component? Certainly not me. What a disingenuous attempt at distorting my words. I certainly did not imply that we should *only* focus on understanding war through understanding savagery.
I know that 99% of the people here will disagree with me, but I'm just being honest. I think stealing a pack of chewing gum is wrong. I think what Hitler did is wrong. I think there are degrees that separate one wrong from another. I saw the pictures of the abuse that our American soldiers are inflicting on the Iraqi prisoners, and I was embarassed and ashamed. When I saw those pictures, I knew that what they did was wrong. And I still feel that way today. Yesterday however, some co-workers had found that video of the beheading and were watching it. Curiosity got the best of me, and I watched it as well. Now I feel completely different about what our Soldiers did. Two wrongs don't make a right, and I still know they were wrong. But the degree that separates what I saw in the pictures of our soldiers and the beheading has grown much wider since seeing the video. It has changed my perspective greatly. Though I still feel that what our soldiers have done is wrong, it makes me at least partially--if not emphasize with them--understand that some people's value's may change somewhat after constantly being exposed to certain horrors. Like for instance: living with the continual fear that there are many people living in close proximity to you that have no respect for life whatsoever--in fact, they look forward to death--and that they want nothing more than just one opportunity to take you and your closest buddies along with them when they die. I'd like to think that I'm stronger than that, but it does make me wonder how much of "myself" I'd be able to hold onto while constantly being in the situation these soldiers are in.
Pole, great post. It takes courage to say that in front of this crowd of liberal piranhas. The bottom line is the liberals are trying to equate a terrorist with panties on his head with the butchered head of Nick Berg. It's gross.
I am part of the 1% that agrees with you. Very good post. I started to download the video yesterday out of curiousity and stopped it at 9%. I dont care to see it, the thought alone is disturbing enough.
Everything is a fight for you. Every response seems like an intentional personal affront meant to needle you. Why is that? I did not suggest that you meant to confine yourself to understanding only a single aspect. What I'm saying is that I do not make it my business to think about war, this one or any other. You said everyone should watch it. My response is that it is only for people who really want to make this war their business. I'm not one of those.
this is exactly the problem that JuanValdez mentions. viewing something like this tends to polarize one's feelings. it becomes an us against them mentality.
I thought they were saying he didn't suffer. How the hell can he be screaming for 20-30 seconds if he didn't suffer? I refuse to watch the video. But, it sounds like your saying even when he was sawing...the guy was still alive screaming. That sickens me to no end that someone could be that cruel. Obviously, those sick b*stard terrorists were trying to make as big an impact shock statement as possible in hopes of scaring people off from Iraq. I can't wait for them to catch these people. Then, we should direct all the prisoner abuse at them. This guy had absolutely zero to do with prison abuse. There is no correlation. These people are going to hell in a handbasket.
Pole...and if we see your beheading and raise you a video of those Iraqi POWs who were tortureed to death? See, the problem with your reasoning is that, as Herotodus said, it makes everything excusable. Remember that the beheading was said with retribution for the POWs...because THAT was so wrong. And so on, and so on. Everyone else's wrong will always seem worse, and when you take up horrible acts, you assure you get nowhere. Not only will it inspire more acts in reponse, but as Agricola said a couple of thousand years ago: It is a principle of human nature to hate those you have injured.
The problem is that according to Congress and the Pentagon there are pictures and videos of US troops during far worse to Iraqi prisoners than just putting panties on top of heads of prisoners. Perhaps under your logic everyone should see video of a two Iraqis being forced to sodomize each other while several armed US troops look on laughing or a US soldier sicking a dog on a bound naked Iraqi prisoner to better understand war. I guess it takes courage to do such things.
Pole, it's important for your perspective to grow by realizing the horrors of war (or war crimes), i.e. war is not a video game like some kids believe. But it's also important that you don't walk away with blind rage of generalizations. Don't glob all prisoners of war into one group. This goes the same with our military members. The acts of a few do not reflect on all. But those that do these acts will be, and should be, held accountable. On both sides. Now about the idea that "beheading" and "sexual sodomy" are not the same. To us, it's different. That's true. But, it would behoove you to look at it from a world perspective -- especially any religious audience. What happens when you start splitting hairs with a country you also happen to be occupying (regardless of the reasons)? I'm not even talking about the radicals. Those are the ones that will not hear anything you have to say. I'm just talking about the commoner; the average Muslim. This is where it gets difficult, because you get into this debate about "my wound" is "worse than your wound" and thus you are more "evil" than me. So, on and so forth. I could be wrong, but there also seems to be a tone from you that other American's have not done these type of acts in the past (To use the cliche: rape, pillage and plunder). Yes, I know we are talking about the Iraq war. But I just didn't want you to get into this mindset that only "other countries" do these things, and that American never does. Basically, war brings out the worst in all people (as we saw from the prison pictures; those were good kids, that did bad things because of the environment of war and the demonization of the prisoners). P.S. I did not view the video. I've seen enough in the last 15 years. No more for me.
I guess it depends on how long the eye surgery lasts. I can say for certain that i'd rather undergo all three rather than have a gang of feral terrorists saw my neck for over a minute while my feet and hands are bound behind me (and shown own televsion no less). For that matter, I'd gladly accept humiliation and taunting from US GI's and their ugly girlfriends to being helplessly bound and beheaded with less dignity than any culture would treat their livestock. That would include any sort of sodomy or beating, as long as it isn't fatal. The media coverage in the Arab world of the whole event was near non-existant, because i think its more than reasonable to think that if anyone was given the volume of primary evidence in both crimes that's out there to see he or she would come to the same conclusions I did.
