Shams - Philly offered Simmons/Thybulle + draft compensation. Did we make the right deal?

Here's Simmon's stats with Embiid on the floor and with him off. These numbers are per 100 possessions.

Pts: 19.8 w/ Embiid, 22.3 without.

FG% 59% w/ Embiid, 51.6 without.

FGA: 13.3 w/Embiid, 16.8 without

FTA 6.6 w/Embiid , 8.1 without

FT% 61.6% w/Embiid, 61% without

Reb 10.1 w/Embiid, 11 without

Assists 9.8 w/ Embiid, 10.5 without

Tov 3.3 w/Embiid, 6.0 without

Stl 2.6 w/Embiid, 2.0 without

Blk 0.8 w/Embiid, 1.0 without

PF 3.9 w/Embiid, 5.0 without

OffRating w/Embiid 118.2, 105.6 without

DefRating w/Embiid 102.8, 109.3 without

Assist to TO: w/Embiid 2.98, 1.74 without

EFG% w/Embiid 59.3, 51.8 without

TS% 61.3 w/Embiid, 54.8 without

Usage 17.8 w/Embiid, 23.2 without

Pace 101.5 w/Embiid, 102.84 without

FG% from Less than 5 ft from hoop: 64.3% w/Embiid, 61.8% without

FG% from 5 to 9 feet from the hoop: 47.7% w/Embiid, 61.85 without

So what is it that Simmons does that much better when Embiid is off the floor? He has the ball in his hands more but he's much less efficient, he turns the ball over almost twice as often and he fouls like crazy ( 5 fouls per 100 possessions).

Overall, he seems to be much better when Embiid is on the floor.

 

There is little empirical evidence that suggests Ben would be elite without Embiid, but Ben could be more efficient if he played along a stretch 5 instead of Dwight or the other replacement-level bigs that Philly rolls out. I'm not convinced but I get the argument

 

Yea I think thats the idea, you take Rondo and put him in the mavs fixed offense he wasn't great. The next year he played conductor in Sacramento and was a bright spot on a terrible team. Chris Paul off of Harden may not be optimized for his talents, but give him a leash and he can do wonders with the thunder.

So the point is that outside of injury games, the general game plan and roster made up is to play with Embiid as teh nucleus and thats teh most efficient and right game plan. But anyone watching Simmons can see he hasn't unlocked what he can do. Give him MDA a spread offense and he is a defense to fast break threat be in on steals, blocks, or the boards you can see a guy who could reasonably get 20-11-7 or more in this league. His limitations are there, but with a different cohesion Simmons still does things at an elite level while being elite in size/athleticism/skill despite his glaring shooting setback. You could also seeing him being a way more efficient or better draymond green in GS surrounded by shooters as he is on the high post. Embiid and simmons are an incredibly talented pair, they are also no 1 in the east despite not really fitting eachothers games that well.

 

The statement I replied to was "Simmons plays well with Embiid off the floor". That is simply untrue. It had nothing to do with hypotheticals of how he might play with a stretch 5.

 

Ben Simmons < Cade
Just percentage to get him alone is worth not having Ben.

 

Curious to see his on/off numbers from last season when he played with Horford instead of Dwight.

 

yep I think you did a great job disproving the statement about Embiid (“no empirical evidence” was my way of agreeing with you). No need to debate that further. But whether or not Ben would be elite in a 5-out offense is a good topic of discussion

 

Exactly

He is taller, longer, more athletic Draymond
Like Green, he struggles when forced to expand his OFF game bc others are not in the lineup

These players complete championship teams when the other pieces are already in place

Neither has the game to lift a lotto team into a playoff team, nor a playoff team into a real contender

Their value shines most by doing the 'little things' that turn a contender into a champion
Rodman was another

The Wagon used to run point..?
Damn my memory is fading fast

 

Ben Simmons is like a swiss army knife but without the knife tool.

 

At this point why do we care?

DD

 

To me the simple question is what would this year’s roster have been if this deal had been completed?

 

Wood/Simmons Pnr duo would have been nice.

 

We wouldn't have been the worst team in the league but we wouldn't be even close to a contender and we'd be pissed off we didn't take the picks package because Simmons is a waste as your teams best player.

 

If Wood still goes down we probably would still be the worst team in the NBA...at the very least bottom 3. Simmons isn't a great scorer and he doesn't have the requisite elite scorers needed on this roster to excel. That's how much of a factor Ben is/isn't when he doesn't have go-to scorers to rely on.

 

Let’s revisit this energy when OKC gets our pick.

 

Maxey is cooking with Gas. Rocket FO fked up not asking the 6ers for that counter offer.

 

“Don’t you put that on me Ricky Bobby”

 

How? No one respects Simmons jumper to go over the screen. They would just hard hedge or run drop switch. He’s not a good enough shooter to run the PNR. It’s a fallacy that Simmons can pass in a half court system. His assist numbers are inflated from Embiid and dishing on the break. Going forward if he wants to win he’ll have to be the short roll man to finish at the rim or find the extra pass.

 

Less athletic Simmons. But Hayes was exactly a better FT shooter

 

Here's the numbers for Simmons with and without Horford. No drastic improvement. FG%, Reb, Ast, EFG%, TS%, USG%, all down though some almost the same.


Pts w/Horford 21.7 w/o 22.1
FG% w/Horford 59.4 w/o 54.9
FT% w/Horford 50% w/o 70.4%
Reb w/Horford 11.1 w/o 8.7
Ast w/Horford 11.1 w/o 9.7
TOV w/Horford 4.8 w/o 4.4
Stl w/Horford 2.8 w/o 2.8
PF w/Horford 4.4 w/o 4.2
EFG% w/Horford 59.6 w/o 54.9
TS% w/Horford 60.4 w/o 59.9
USG% w/Horford 20.5 w/o 20.1
FG% less than 5 ft w/Horford 66.2 w/o 64.6
FG% 5-9 ft w/Horford 40% w/o 29.4