Tensions over Palestinian evictions in East Jerusalem boil over

Very interesting read -- thanks for posting that.

 

Like pretty much everyone else in this thread, yes I disagree with that. Thankfully, casualties are relatively low.

Who here is saying Israel should do nothing? I disagree with leveling residential buildings and destroying important civilian infrastructure, just because some Hamas officials might be in there. Virtually everyone recognizes that Israel has a right to defend themselves. But they also have an obligation to do so in a manner that protects the lives of civilians on both sides of the conflict. There is no reason that this needs to blow up into a conflict that kills hundreds and perhaps ultimately thousands of people, before a ceasefire is eventually reached.

Israel has the biggest gun and is killing the most people right now, and doing so with US military aid. That means that responsibility for those mounting deaths fall on us as well, if we choose to say nothing.

Israel should do what they can to dismantle Hama's rocket launching capability without bombing civilians to death and destroying civilian infrastructure. That's hard to do. Which is why reliance on blowing things up is not ultimately a solution to this conflict.

They can do more to spare Palestinian civilians.

Criticizing Israel is not equivalent to siding with Hamas.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/10/...ro-dissent/arbitrary-arrest-and-torture-under

Israel's political system is far superior compared to Hamas, and other countries in the region, in its treatment of its local population. For that, they should be credited. Hamas is awful.

But I don't give Israel extra credit for showing restraint in a battle against Hamas. Hamas seeks to terrorize/demoralize the opposing side and in so doing gather political support at home. The same can be said of Israel, but their technological superiority allows them to achieve those goals with a much higher body count while also "showing restraint".

I will assume that Houston has an iron dome that protects the population from the vast majority of those thousands of missiles, and so in the end only a handful of people are killed. I will assume that Houston has imposed harsh economic blockades on Galveston, turning it into the equivalent of a third-world country. There's a lot of other background history that's hard to replicate in this hypothetical.

But, no, I don't think Houston should level residential buildings in Galveston under that scenario, killing families that are just trying to get by with their unfortunate lives, in order to root out the militants.

 

Curiously, there appears to be no mention in this article of the fact that while Israel claims East Jerusalem as its own, it is generally considered to be occupied territory by Palestinians and the wider international community since the 1967 war. Nor is there mention of the fact that both Jews and Palestinians lost their homes during the war of independence. It only talks about homes that were confiscated by Jordan.

 

https://www.kkl-jnf.org/about-kkl-jnf/kkl-jnf-id/jewish-people-land/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

The JNF stipulates that only Jews can buy, mortgage or lease JNF land. Article 23 of the JNF lease states that the lessee must pay compensation to the JNF if this stipulation is violated.

 

"Ownership" of real estate in Israel usually means leasing rights from the ILA for a period of 49 or 98 years.

Under Israeli law, the Israel Land Administration cannot lease land to foreign nationals. In practice foreigners may be allowed to lease if they show that they are eligible to immigrate to Israel in accordance with the Law of Return.

 

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/...orities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution#

About 6.8 million Jewish Israelis and 6.8 million Palestinians live today between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River, an area encompassing Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), the latter made up of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. Throughout most of this area, Israel is the sole governing power; in the remainder, it exercises primary authority alongside limited Palestinian self-rule. Across these areas and in most aspects of life, Israeli authorities methodically privilege Jewish Israelis and discriminate against Palestinians. Laws, policies, and statements by leading Israeli officials make plain that the objective of maintaining Jewish Israeli control over demographics, political power, and land has long guided government policy. In pursuit of this goal, authorities have dispossessed, confined, forcibly separated, and subjugated Palestinians by virtue of their identity to varying degrees of intensity. In certain areas, as described in this report, these deprivations are so severe that they amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution.

 

Here come the Ottomans!

https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/tur...rce-for-palestine-in-emergency-oic-meet-46749

 

theres no way to say this without sounding callous... but I keep coming back to my point about the AP/Al Jazeera building.

in absolutely no way is it “ok” to kill civilians much less kids.

and pictures are pictures.

but how can anyone believe the words of the article? Al Jazeera and the AP both were sharing space with Hamas and in a building that had Rockets launched from it while as recently as today denying that ever happened because they’ve been threatened as such. [as mentioned earlier in this thread I dont say that with 100% confidence but increasingly seems to be he case]

Again that sounds callous. Apologies.

to be clear if he analogous happened anywhere in America you can be damn certain America would strike back with a vengeance.... regardless of how ghettoed an environment America was imposing on whomever.

but I’m NOT fully on board with Aroundtheworld. America would strike back with a vengeance but doesn’t mean they should. Neither should Israel imo. The pen is mightier than the sword. They should be doing everything in their power to respond with restraint, to win the war of words and hearts. Which they can afford to do because of the Iron Dome. Not that Israeli casualties are ok... but one must thing if he big picture strategically. Great, you can win the war with Palestine. The rest of the world seems to hate you now though.

and yes WW2 was unfair. And yes it would be fair for European and other countries to rightfully return all property rights to Jews that lost them. Just like we Americans can return our property rights to Native Americans. That wound be fair. And yes Hamas is terrorist. Yes they’d wipe out Israel if they could. Absolutely here’s too much focus on Israel and not enough on Jordan and Egypt, both of which also border the West Bank/Gaza Strip. And absolutely continue to enforce things like, you know, tenants paying rent per fair laws.

but even with all that... sometimes you just have to be better and think more strategically and big picture....

... assuming the ultimate long term goal is the health and happiness of Israeli citizens (and hopefully Jews worldwide) under the current borders.

 

Delete

 

I think the women and children part hits us all. We know that at this point they are not a part of this, especially children often innocent so those 'casualities' of any war are hard to swallow and more so perhaps why we have some rules of warfare which is ugly nonetheless, but there is toothles international law to the limits of it.

Certainly hamas hasn't represented the best of Palestinians, arguably netanyahu has used fear to retain power for a 'netanyahu first' regime standing for nothing but his own power. Most would say, well they were voted in. But even in America, in the last 8 years almost half the country felt disenfranchised one way or another. So with that in mind, we must remember there is often a difference between the populace and the government. Israel is an ally that we give billions in aid to. The country's citizens have done amazing things in the world and htey've been a friend and a democracy, but at the same time they've been caught spying in america, they've be cuaght meddling in our elections, bypassing our leadership in congress. Well, netanyahu has.

Back to the laws of war, proportional response. IDF often claims they have no choice because hamas is using 'human shields'. The AP reportings building base and base of other media's bombing was used under the same guise. They said they gave a warning, but also when an entire building goes down, the rubble, the stone,shaprnel, bricks will lead to death to people around it let alone kids still wandering and there were several children to die. They called it unfortunate. I do believe Israel deserves the right to defend it self, but within the rules of war if there was a high rise where two crmiinals were causing a rucus, im not sure anyone would feel it appropriate to blow the entire building of homes and perhaps people and say those guys were using human shields.
Then there is the other factor, Israel controls the Water in Gaza. Medicine? Israel controls the input of medicine and medical treatment in Gaza, Electricity as well. Want to set up solar to gain some agency, IDF has and will cut it off.







-The above link has a list of tweets if you read down where he talks about this situation of almost no movement for gaza, forward, backward and they are in no mans land.

I say this with deep respect for what the jewish people went through. The Holocaust was a tragedy to say the least and the way the community moved forward, rebuilt, rejuvinated embodied a perseverance and strength that is nothing short of inspirational and will be forever. This makes the condition with the settlements, the way they are using courts to kick people out and even taunt them who have lived there for generations and generations all the more curious.

We have to remember and learn from History. Nelson Mandela is rightfully revered right now by many people. However during the South Africa Apartheid, america had Nelson Mandela on the terrorist list.( https://time.com/5338569/nelson-mandela-terror-list/)Sometimes we don't always get it right. We’ve all seen china not just with Hong Kong but with ughiuirs, we see Burma with rhongyia, we see Saudi...with any dissent. And our government hasn’t nailed it, yet somehow their governments almost are all quick to call the other terrorist...remember the iraq war and the lives and trillions lost for terrorism and weapons of mass destructions? Remember Netanyahu was I
At the un not too long ago saying he had proof we needed immediate war with Iran with his drawing. Let alone now more than ever China, India, Saudi , Israel, Russia are known to use “soft power” through not just traditional media, but even social media to muddy waters. It’s ok the ask questions, the begin to see when things don’t add up But through democracy we have a track to reach our ideals by the people.

 

As I have said before, this is what makes it sadder. The people settling there were oppressed or their ancestors were. And now they are oppressing others.

I dont understand how Israel can expect people to live in peace in harmony given what they have been doing in Gaza (cut it off from necessities).

It's a apartheid state as it is.

You cant oppress people, steal their homes and land, and cut them off and then expect them to gladly accept it..

Also, posting a video of Arabs inciting violence against Israelis does not mean one side is right over the other.

You can always find videos of Israeli settlers stealing land and inciting violence as well.



An Israeli settler was asked why he was stealing someone else's home and his response was that if he doesnt do it, someone else [another Israeli settler] will.

Seriously??

 

Video for @DonatelloLimestone post

Spoiler

 

Daycares more like it

 

I understand that the D&D always waste long arguments like this was Yao vs. Tmac

but the fact is this crap will never end until religion itself is proven or disproven

that’s it
Gods plan
He turned the 02 into 03

 

This is one of the first threads I've read in D&D in probably a year, and I really appreciated the insight and ideas being shared as people attempt to pick sides (or stay neutral). It's refreshing to see that people can still talk civilly and think critically, even about what is really a life or death situation for people. Maybe because it doesn't involve any local political celebrities or trigger words... yet.

 

They were sitting down all this time

 

I choose that the entire Middle East is backwards
Because they choose to put religion above all.

 

When you put your mouse over this section, it says "monkeys fleeing poo on each other" Yep. But even the religion part is an excuse. Have you seen isis, rampant with rape, alcohol hedonism, I doubt they read and practice their holy books. Do you see the actiosn of this state, not of jews once again, of the state of israel in the movies above. Its akin to maybe those antifa or native who say we have history of opporession gathering power, declaring your home and neighborhod a historical or military importance, going to a court full of sympathizers and you lose. Then afterwards they end up building homes there in the place you, your parents, and grandparents or more lived.

Remembr this isn't the religion vs religion thing, this is a group of people over a dispute of land. There are many jewish people who don't like and don't vote for netanyahu and don't agree with these tactics. Likewise, you'll find plenty of mulsims who find hamas, find saudi, or whatever similar powers that be repulsive. What they do is try to claim the religon, the divide and conquer to claim loyalties and just cast a wider net of not too dissent. It isn't too surprising when you see putin, North Korea, MBS, China, all claim to have total support and love of the people...its all similar self serving tactics, whatever retains power.


Its not surprise when china had hong kong free speech people or ughuirs, they claimed these people are the aggressors and terrorist and they are just trying to bring peace. Its no secret that Nevlany is in jail while putin claims to have total support of the people. Likewise in Burma, they claim the poor Rhongiya are the aggressors. You know those ladies in Saudi who just tried to drive or a few teenage protestors sying democracy isn't a bad value, well MBS says he was just punishing terrorist. It isn't so simple. And this is no defense for Hamas, whose power structure is probably as similar and self serving, but this is about a disenfranchised group of people that aren't allowed to have their own electricity, their own water, they aren't even allowed their own medicine, their borders are totally surrounded and guarded, their walls get closed in on places they've lived and were born, parents were born, often grandparents were born and when they say no thats mine, they get called terrorist. Its easy to say its muslims vs jews, but somehow I doubt al these guys one one side are practicing the Koran with all of its values and the otherside is practicing the torah, likewise I remember some american politicians who are devout 'catholics' and when the pope disgreed with them, they told him to stay out of politics. They have convenient identities that work for good PR.

 

Let’s just say you brainwashed everyone in that region to be atheists
And made them all dress like cult members from
The leftovers
Could you tell difference between them if they didn’t identify with country or religion?

 

We've got pockets like that too. Strong close knit orthorodox communities, Amish, Mormons etc. Some do ok, some have challenges, and slowly they are finding their way in the state. The evangelical vote itself is a strong voting block, as is orthodox jewish as well. They have a situation in brooklyn where they had they've developed their own security and policing. In jersey they organized and created their own voting block taking over the education board. Evangelicals are pretty obviously well organized voting block and the right parties strongly pander to them for their vote. I believe its something about having israel settled so the rapture can come. Amish seem to keep to themselves, the mormons in utah have strong power. I can't imagine if the muslims did that in the states the people would feel the same about state and church being accessible in that way. The binary system allows scales tip. Democracy should allow each person to speak.