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The state of the republican party

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Feb 21, 2021.

  1. deb4rockets

    deb4rockets Contributing Member
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    Isn't that the truth!
     
  2. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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  3. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Who said I had optimism?

    And it's different from outright nullifying an election and voting for largely symbolic certification vote.

    And over 50 Republicans did not vote to overturn the certification.

    What I actually believe is that the republicans will not gain control because they will not get the support by using the MTG methods throughout the U.S.

    And if what you believe is true and happens we are all ****ed anyway and no amount of worrying will stop it.

    Voting will stop all of this and its the democrats job to make sure everybody is educated on how to vote come 20/22.

    No Republicans are not genuinely something of which to be badly frightened, whats frightening is both sides demonizing everybody on the "other side" are we just gonna forget that Republicans are a part of the reason we have Biden and Georgia?

    When does it stop?

    When we segregate?
     
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  4. Agent94

    Agent94 Member

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    I'm not going to look that up, but I'm 99% sure that is not right. The president is elected by electors. The process of choosing electors is determined by state legislatures.
     
    jiggyfly likes this.
  5. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate; -- The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted; -- The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice


    So yeah... as long as the states play along, and refuse to send enough electors to certify the election, under the constitution, Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy can call a vote at that point if it is a contested election.

    I mentioned in my post that of course there are the court's role, the role of the Senate, and the role of Kamala Harris to consider in this equation which would make it chaotic to say the least.

    But yeah if let's say Arizona and Georgia are two of the deciding states to get Biden to 270 refuse to send their electors, or just change their electors votes against the popular vote, at that point, it's clear in the Constitution that John Roberts will rule that the House of Representatives is well within it's power to call the vote for President.

    @jiggyfly thinks there are enough Republicans of goodwill in the states and in the House to where they wouldn't vote against the will of the people. I'm just more cynical I guess. Based on what I saw on January 6th, they already tried to do this by pressuring Mike Pence to refuse to reside over the counting of the electors, and then forcing a vote in the House (which I'm sure Pelosi would have had something to say about it then). However with a GOP controlled House of Representatives, I don' see how it'll be any easier for Democracy to win over the continued blatant attempts to overturn a Democratic election.

    If you are correct that the House of Representatives does not have the power to vote for President under the 12th amendment then what were they trying to do on January 6th?
     
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  6. Agent94

    Agent94 Member

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    You are correct. I'm aware of several of these edge cases. I thought you were saying the house could choose the president outright without any other shenanigans. There is a good Radiolab episode I listened to before the election that details what you are saying along with several other scary scenarios. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/what-if. It's annoying that most people have bought into 1/6 as a riot and not a failed coup attempt.
     
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  7. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    What happened in both Arizona and Georgia?

    The powers that be certified the election and even more people left the party after the 6th.

    Democracy won and I think it will be an overwhelming victory in 2022 when Trump is not on the ballot.
     
  8. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    What happened in Georgia and soon to be Arizona if they haven't already is that they changed the election laws so that no pesky secretary of state can stand in the way of what the state House members want to do if they want to send alternate electors, or just outright reject the results.

    Democracy won in 2020, but I just differ with you if you think that there's no blatant moves being made to make it inevitable that in 2022 and 2024 that election results can be overturned.

    Will it be easy? Not necessarily. Will the Democrats win 2022 as you think they will?? Possibly... hopefully. I guess I'm just less optimistic because of 2010. Even myself as someone who is pretty plugged in, I missed the local election a few weeks ago cause I just am not as plugged in now, and have much more entertaining/less stressful interests taking up my time. If I'm missing elections myself, I don't feel positive that turnout will be as high in 2022, and I continue to see an energized Trump cult.

    So we'll just have to see on both fronts. I'm much more doomsday of course, but it's not like I'm pulling this stuff out of my arse. I think there's good reason to be concerned on both.
     
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  9. subtomic

    subtomic Contributing Member
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    Just stop it with the "both sides" bullshit. There is no equivalency between what the Republicans are doing and are planning to do and what the Democrats have done. The Republicans' fealty to the most grossly incompetent and personally vile President in the history of our country, and their efforts to sow doubt and discord on blatantly false premises is a clear and present danger to our country's rule of law and democracy. And the actions taken by Republican politicians (with the broad support of their voters) to support Trump and handicap Democrat voters is genuinely frightening. Name me something - anything - that the Democrats have done that is equivalent. I'm not arguing that Democrats are angels, but we don't treat someone throwing a cup of room temperature water at another person's face as equivalent to someone who throws boiling water at another - the difference in degree matters (pun not intended). That doesn't even cover the fact that so much of Republican demonization is based upon outright lies. Again, name me an issue popular with Democratic voters that is based on a total lie.

    Why does this matter? Because there are way too many voters - purposefully under-informed and generally disinterested in politics - who truly believe both sides are equally bad and thus use that to justify their vote for the GOP in order to get tax breaks, to support some social issue (abortion, guns, prayer in school, etc) or just because they've always voted that way. When Democrat criticism is somehow equated to the actual demonization by Republicans of Democrat voters, cities and other conservative boogey monsters (like immigrants, welfare recipients, homeless, climate change scientists), it bolsters that kind of lazy thinking.

    What I believe the Republicans are trying to do is indeed true, but it is not inevitable yet.

    When will it stop? I hope it won't require this country splitting up, although I am more convinced everyday that is inevitable. But if the Republican party can transform itself to a party that accepts science, actually has policy ideas and abandons the hate-mongering it has adopted (at varying levels of volume) since the Nixon administration.
     
  10. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    How the hell did you get both sides from this?

    Its evident that you just want to be pissed of about any and everything, this had nothing to do with blaming democrats for anything its about YOU demonizing an entire group of people just because they have Republican next to their name.

    You (not democrats) are the problem if you automatically dismiss anyone because they are a republican and you are even willing to think about segregating how would that work out for the country.

    You are hate mongering as much as the people you are railing against.
     
  11. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    I never said these are not blatant moves I just don't think these people are ready to enact the nuclear option and just doing a lot of this for show.

    There is definitely a dip in the Trump popularity and thats why I said the democrats need to make sure they educate and energize voters in 20/22 and we need to understand the importance as well ,if you have this outlook what does it say that you missed a election?

    https://thehill.com/homenews/538147-positive-views-of-republican-party-slide-since-november-poll

    Thirty-seven percent of respondents in the Gallup survey said they now have a favorable view of the party, down from 43 percent in November. Positive views for the Democrats Party, meanwhile, rose to 48 percent during the same time period, an uptick from 45 percent in November.

    The GOP's decline has mainly been caused by its own members, the poll found. Just 78 percent of voters who identified as Republicans now say they view the party in a positive light, compared to 90 percent in November.
     
  12. subtomic

    subtomic Contributing Member
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    See below (bolding and underlining mine)

    Unless someone else wrote this by hacking your account, I got both sides directly from your own words

    I'm not demonizing anyone - I've described what Republican have done and are doing, and shared my opinion that it is frightening. And while I'm obviously biased here, I also think that the past, present and pending actions of the Republican party - which again (and I can't emphasize this enough) are done with overwhelming support of self-identified Republican voters - are frightening on an objective level. In your disagreement with me, you countered that demonization on "both sides" is what's really frightening. This is as clear as a "both sides" argument as can be found.

    Nothing I said is dismissive or hate-mongering, and frankly, that kind of accusation is beneath you. You are a smarter and better poster than the knee-jerk defensiveness displayed here.
     
  13. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Dude if you know what kind of poster I am why the hell did you come at me with the both sides ****?

    Why the hell did you focus that one thing, when you I don't do false equivalency.

    There are people on both sides who demonize everything to do with the other side and you are a prime example.

    If you can't see how you are demonizing all Republicans then you have very little self awareness.

    So what if things are done with the overwhelming support why does that mean you have to demonize them all?

    You are the one that knee jerked here not me, you are really a piece of work.
     
  14. subtomic

    subtomic Contributing Member
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    If you spent half as much time defending your position with proof vs demonizing me (irony isn't your strong suit), we might have an interesting debate here.

    As it is, you've shown yourself to have all debate skills of a defensive child who screams "NUH-UH!!! YOU ARE!!!!" when challenged.
     
  15. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    WTF are you talking about?

    How the hell can I defend a position that all Republicans are not evil.

    What the hell do you think we are debating?
     
  16. subtomic

    subtomic Contributing Member
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    I'm not arguing that all Republicans are evil. Such an argument would be pointless

    The argument began as - and remains - a discussion as to whether Republicans are actually likely to attempt to overturn a Presidential election by refusing to certify it.

    You argued that they won't because a number Republicans voted against this in 2020 and that voters will not tolerate it.

    In response, several of us (including me) countered that the Republican party is looking to primary those who voted to certify the election, and are also taking additional measures (including voting legislation and messaging that the 2020 election was illegitimate and full of fraud) to decrease the number of Democratic voters. It was not stated explicitly by me, but others pointed out that these new voting laws are done to either ensure a Republican victory or failing that, to make the Presidential vote close as possible. In the event of the latter, Republicans are enabling the possibility that a state could challenge their own electors, thus sending the final Presidential vote to what could be a Republican Congress. I also mentioned multiple times that Republican voters are supporting all of this.

    When I called that frightening, you dismissed my opinion by countering that the "demonization" on "both sides" (your words, not mine) is what's really frightening.

    I then disagreed with this contention strongly (because frankly, it is bullshit), but asked you to provide an equivalent example of demonization (or actions that suggest demonization) that is coming from the Democratic side. I also explained why I found your response problematic from a messaging standpoint in terms of low-information/ politically disinterested voters.

    In response, you accused me of hate-mongering.

    The main question remains whether Republicans are likely to hold back on challenging a Presidential election if circumstances would allow it. My contention is that not only will they challenge the election if the circumstances enable it, but that they are taking steps at the state level (in terms of voting rights and process) that increase the odds of such circumstances occurring.

    That's what I thought we were debating, until you threw a hissy fit.
     
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  17. dc rock

    dc rock Contributing Member

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  18. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    To me the most worrisome parts of the latest rounds of voter laws is how it gives more power to the state legislatures to overrule their own elections and choose electors. That does open up the possibility of a 12th Amendment situation in the House but that still is a difficult proposition as it would still take a majority Congress to choose to go along. It's possible but even if the the Republicans retake the majority they might not have big enough majorities to succeed. This is definitely something to worry about but not sure it will likely get to that point.

    For that matter if Congress were to go against what is clearly both a popular vote and electoral vote win based on a few states overturning their own elections that would be a recipe for civil war. Not just between states but within states as I don't think the residents of Atlanta or Phoenix would accept if their state legislatures overruled how their states voted.

    Looking at Jan. 6th. While that was very serious there was very little chance of them actually overturning the vote. Even if all Republicans stuck together as the minority they couldn't stop the certification. There was no Constitutional means for Pence to stop or overturn the certification. The people who stormed the Capitol were fed a lot of lies and misstatements about the Constitution and how our system worked.

    If Republicans though are determined to go down this route and decide to actually campaign on that they could overturn elections I don't think that's a winning strategy. It's pretty clear that they are running a base election and rely upon gerrymandering but the Republican base is shrinking and they can only gerrymander so much. You also can't gerrymander states. This will come down to are suburban voters really going to want to vote for candidates who are saying they will overrule elections?
     
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  19. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    The one difference in January 6th 2021 and January 7th 2025 is that the acting commander in chief of the military will still be Joe Biden and the president of the Senate will be Kamala Harris. Where I think Trump's strategists (likely Bannon and Roger Stone IMO based on who I think really was behind the planning) where trying to head was Pence to refuse to perform his role, and a vote forced upon Nancy Pelosi in the House via 12th amendment. I think they liked their odds heading into that vote even though it would have been close. Had there been a true chaotic contest, currently holding the military was one card they probably thought would be their ticket to holding on and getting the Democrats to back down through intimidation, and the Trumpers thinking that Democrats (like Gore did) will back off for the good of the country to avoid conflict.

    I think with the chief strategists of the GOP (Bannon and Stone honestly are probably two of the top guys at this point along with Tucker Carlson maybe behind the scenes), they are sort of Dogs chasing after cars. But I don't want to find out what would happen if they actually caught one. When Roger Stone put together the Brooks Brother Riot back in 2000 during Bush V Gore, I would say the strategy while sounding kind of dumb, and chaotic .... had real impact, and could have been the deciding factor in the Supreme Court shutting down the recount, and handing the victory to W, and the rest is history.

    So yeah... even with the January 7th 2025 scenario, I do think it'll be alot like Dogs chasing cars, but I'm old enough to know that you don't really want to find out what'll happen if they catch ANY sort of break in their schemes. Democrats need to prepare for anything and everything to secure our Democracy against their lunatic fascists.
     
  20. deb4rockets

    deb4rockets Contributing Member
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    Yep.
    Yep.
     
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