[OFFICIAL] Russell Westbrook as a Washington Wizard

What?

You put Harden on the Kings and that team is a top 4 seed, not battling for a playin spot.

Talk about giving a man his due.

You replace Harden with Westbrook and that team is battling for the 4, 5, 6, position in the playoffs.

We are faulting him for having the same empty stats that leads to mediocre teams that get bounced out early of the playoffs, why do you act like he has no history?

 

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I don't disagree with what you wrote. Russ is a good player, obviously a great rebounder and obviously he can take over games with his athleticism and his work ethic and desire. My criticism is at the highest level, when I say he's not a top player, I mean at the very top.

If you want to turn a bad team respectable, Russ is probably the best guy to do it, other than maybe James. But if you want a top guard as part of a championship team, there are better guards. James, CP3, Curry, maybe Lillard and Kyrie, that's five right there, not counting the next generation.

Russ for all his spectacular play and great stats couldn't win a title with KD at OKC and couldn't win a title with James at Houston. I think he could have made it work, if only he adjusted his game. He could learn from CP3, to play to his strengths, and he'd be better than CP3. But I suppose if he adjusted his game, then he wouldn't be Russ.

 

Yes washington sucks but part of that is because of Russ.

They have 2 all NBA players why should they be sucking?

 

Is Russ about to start the season off horribly, play well towards the end, and then shoot 38% in the playoffs as his team loses in 5? Find out on the next episode of...

 

This is NOT about Harden, this is about Westbrook.

Harden is better than Westbrook, no one is arguing otherwise, I don't know why every time I talk about Russ here someone tries to compare the two like it's a competition between them.

Also you contradict yourself, you say his stats lead a team to being mediocre, if they are empty, then why is it just mediocre and not just bad? Why are we only faulting Russ and not Beal?

Russ history? Russ has been a winning player his entire career? This has to be the first time he was on a losing team outside of his rookie year. That's Russ' history, a winning player.

 

So why did you bring Harden up?

Nobody would have thought about Harden if you did not bring him up.

I contradicted nothing I think the Wizards are bad you said they were mediocre so I played along.

Russ has a history of underachievement in the playoffs and of blowing leads in the playoffs, why do you ignore that.

 

The only point is that Harden, like any superstar, raises the floor of a team. Westbrook does that as well, that Russ doesn't raise the floor as high as Harden is irrelevant in this instance because people were knocking Russ for raising the floor of a team when he's literally there to do that. The Wizards didn't acquire him to tank, they acquired him to get into the playoffs, help Rui grow, and try to convince Beal to stay.

Bad, mediocre, could mean the same thing in the NBA, but without him they were worse.

I mean we can say that of many players? Many HOF players underachieve in the playoffs, blow leads, and in general, just don't get it done in the playoffs. I'm not sure we want to have that discussion, I mean, CP3s playoff record for example is one of coming short. Does that make him an underachiever? that players have good runs and bad runs in the playoffs is quite natural. Russ had good runs, he had bad runs, this is actually the usual for a lot of players throughout history. The Lebron James' and Jordan's and Duncan's of the world that dominate post season after post season are outliers.

That Russ isn't Jordan or something is really not the argument, that he's a great player, a HOF 1st ballot player, someone that should get a bit more respect than he does is really all I'm talking about.

 

So this was about Harden?

Harden raises the floor and the ceiling while Westbrook does not, I will ask the same question why do you keep bringing up Harden?

Nobody is comparing Russ to Jordan you keep creating straw men.

 

Russ (and Curry) have a bad rap due to their MVP awards when Harden was here. Whatever they both do, if they are successful, it's because of good teammates. If they aren't, it's proof they aren't good. Nothing will change that, really. It's funny how when Harden or Steve Francis or Hakeem would get triple doubles, it was a great thing. But when Westbrook does it, it's easy and anyone could do it if they wanted to (apparently no one else likes stats?). Makes me wonder why more point guards aren't averaging 10 assists if its so easy and why more big men don't average 10 rebounds. And of course its stat-padding, despite the fact that his team winning % is basically best-record-in-the-NBA when he gets triple doubles. Playing too hard is a bad thing also, it seems.

Russ has a problem that he makes dumb decisions when he's relied on to be "the man" in critical situations, and he plays so hard in playoff games that he wears himself out in the 4th quarter. He needed someone to take the load off. Harden's problem was that he got super lazy at times in key playoff moments and lost interest in plays when the defense forced the ball out his hands. He needed someone who could take over when he lost focus. They didn't necessarily make sense together in the regular season, but Russ and Harden should have been a great playoff combo to address each other's failings. Unfortunately Russ was injured last year and then everything went to hell.

 

Does he really have a history of underachievement? He lost in a finals to Lebron. They lost to the 72-win GS Warriors after having a 3-1 lead, but Durant was just as terrible in those last 3 games. He lost last year when playing on a messed up quad (and after having Covid, though who knows if that had an effect). Outside of those seasons, he's never had an all-star cast around him. Overall, he's had a similar playoff history to Harden. When he's paired up with other all-stars, they've done reasonably well, but not quite ever finished the deal. When without, they struggle (recall Harden's playoff chokes prior to getting Paul or Westbrook by his side).

I do think he has a history of blowing 4th quarter leads in the playoffs (I think he did several against Houston) - but they were generally when he was the underdog and was exhausting himself dominating the first 3 quarters. It's certainly an issue that he couldn't figure out a way to regulate and pace himself, but it's a problem most coaches would love to have, I think. He just needed more help.

 

Yea, I think some criticism of Russ is fair. But Russ playing with a 4 out shooting team would really help heighten what he is good at. Lebron is lebron, a goat conversation, but even he is maximized bc his talent is breaking down the dribble and you give him maybe a roll guy and shooters and he can bring the best out of everyone. OKC ran with Andre Robrertson for far too long, not a bad talent per se but not a great fit. In houston from december till the end of the season ,we saw russ all of a sudden be wildly efficient and put up something 30-7-7 on 50 percent shooting and believe it or not like 35 plus from the 3(just shot it less). Those are top level and he was leading us too.
of course all that was undone when he played injured and rushed back in the playoffs and lost all rockets fans, but the point sides how you maximize his talent.

Our in wizards lands, outside of beal, that team is abysmal and just not ready. Similarly you have to play beltrans who is a solid shooter, but watch teh games, hes embarassing on defense. The game against toronto, Spicy P put up something like 45 on him and in the clutch it was all 1-1 chopping him up and Scotty Brooks made no adjustments, of course some guys on here would cite but BelTraNs haD a HighER plUS MinUS, you watch that game and you see it entirely differently.

I think the criticism of russ is reasonable, I think its just gotten silly as a narrative at this point.

ITs comical how people ran with the narrative of him as a stat padder. Steph mentioned he saw beals performance and went for more shots, is he stat padding? Kobe of course didn't need the 81 that game, especially in the fourth, but is he stat padding? How many guys dont hsoot at the end of the clock to save their 50 percent shooting, is that stat padding?
People go for individual accolades, its a part of the game.
people can make millions just having one of russ's stats be it rebounds or assists, you can call a triple double arbitrary and lower the bar to 15-8-8, just high amounts above average output, still only elite are doing it.
Its amazing now his rebounds are fake, steven adamas had the same amount of rebounds and rebound rate before and after Russ, zach lowe(otherwise great writer) started the narrative that adams was a victim, never corrected it when it showed his rates never improved.
Look at the video, russ is an elite rebounder. This season as well, he'll pull out clutch offensive boards. Boards is about timing, aggression, and will. It isn't a science and Russ has got "it"
Take the good and take the bad with him, but its gotten polarized where people just deduce him here to he sucks and should be on the bench vs the other side rather than objective

 

Yes.

72 wins means little when you blow a 3-1 and I am not letting Durant off the hook.

He lost in the 1st round from 2016 to 2019 and 2 off those years he had another all nba player next to him and a 3rd guy who was pushing all star status.

If Harden choked Westbrook strangled himself.

It was not a question of regulation and pacing it was of shot selection, defense and turnovers.

 

Don’t hate the person. Sounds like every city he’s been in he’s been outstanding for fans and the community. But that doesn’t change who he is on the court now.

I can acknowledge that his highs are still All NBA caliber. But I see that his lows essentially negate it all when looking at the TOTAL season. Not just his single spectacular games or is 20-30 game hot streaks. The ENTIRE season.

The maddening mistake is people all of a sudden crediting Westbrook as the one who has dragged the team to the playoffs this season. Beal has been spectacular all year long trying to drag this crap team and now Westbrook finally shows up to help towards the end of the season, against what I pointed out in a prior post has been overall pretty awful competition, and the Westbrook fans have come to gloat and act like the rest of the season didn’t happen.

I don’t necessarily fault him, I’m trying to fault the people who still truly believe that what Westbrook does on a basketball court still produces wins at a high level. It produces highlights in spurts. It produces huge counting numbers in 3 specific categories. But it no longer, for a FULL SEASON, drives winning in a “star” level way. The eyeball test shows it. The teams simple W/L record shows it. The numbers show it.

No one is trashing Beal because it’s clear he is the one who has done the vast majority of the carrying, while the rest of the team has mostly sucked.

538s Wins Above Replacement
Beal : +6.7
Westbrook : +0.7

Basketball Reference Total Win Shares
Beal : +6.0
Westbrook + 3.0(2nd lowest of his career)

Win Shares Per 48
Beal : .136
Westbrook : .064(2nd lowest of his career)

It’s perfectly reasonable to claim that over the last 20ish games Westbrook has been great. And I agree. He’s been huge for them winning over these 20ish games. But it’s also perfectly reasonable to acknowledge outside of those 20 games it’s been mostly bad basketball from him which has made his SEASON LONG impact worse than the year prior. Continuing a trend from his awesome MVP season that now for the 4th season in a row his impact on winning has taken another step down and has been well below star level. Forget superstar or all star level.

Very, very similar to his time here. At times brilliant, but mostly bad or injured or both. Overall low impact. And for the price tag, impossible to win big with.

I think that is a pretty reasonable, fair and nothing personal assessment of what has happened with him. And as much as some might want to think this is all based on statistical analysis or even just a dislike of him because of Harden.... it really isn’t. As easy as it is to see with your eyeballs his spectacular moments, his endless supply of terrible ones are there on display most nights. You don’t need a spreadsheet to see it.

 

If you're argument is he isn't consistent, he's volatile. I 100 percent Agree. ITs also odd to deduce what hes doing and paint him as someone who just sucks and is detrimental to the team. beal is the best player on the team I agree, but this win streak doesn't happen wihtout Russ. I've been watching these games, the ltitle things he does are impressive. And I agree with you, terrible...just terrible the first half of the season. But they had like something of a 3 percent chance to make the playoffs. You replace him with deandre melton who you cited as someone who would be better thaen russ...tehy aren't sniffing this run that the did.

And its fair to say, you want consistency, but the averages out especially given russ is more volatile don't show his capability. When hes at his best, he is historic level good. I mean maybe a handful of guys in the nba could do what he does here, and a game winner 3

aNd thats not the only one, but yes. You take the bad with a dude like Russ. his inability and unwillingness to adjust in the playoffs hurts him greatly. AT the same time, when he gets 4 out, the game changes. Its always a matter of cohesion, very very rare few of players are lebron, and even he is heightened with the right pieces, hes also in the conversation of greatest of all time, but theres a reason he is LeGM.

So there fore the brush of Russ as useless, and even that he is a bench player. It is hard to put that dude in the bench when he would be busting Deandre Meltons ass every single day in the playoffs . Russ wasn't handed the keys, he earned it. Wasn't big recruit in UCLA, played two seasons started on the bench, pegged as a athletic defender 2 guard, OKC was said to drafted him too high, can't play PG in the nba. Time and time again the guy just defies with scowl on his face. He is polarizing, he is frustrating, and in my opinion taking the good with the bad, he is still an nba great. deandre melton and a few of the others don't sniff his level of talent and what he can do on the court. Maybe they are more stable, maybe they make less mistakes, maybe yo can go get monte morris the picutre of stability and not making mistakes, but you'll never get the heights that westbrook will give you, just not in the beginning of the season These game winning boards, Blocks, plays don't happen with deandre melton

 

Dude, I also brought up CP3, Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, and other players too, are you saying this is about them as well? You want this to be about Harden, it isn't. Bringing up other players doesn't make this about them since we're talking about basketball.

All I said was that Russ raises the floor, much like Harden does. No one also said you were comparing Russ to Jordan. I said that you faulting him for not being great in the playoffs all the time is holding him to an impossible standard. Do you hold CP3 to that standard as well? If Russ is an underachiever then so is CP3 when it comes to the playoffs. I brought up Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, because if we're going to start calling people who don't have consistent playoff success underachievers we're going to go after a lot of all-time great players then.

 

This is key.

As good as Beal is, he doesn't raise the floor of a team like Westbrook. He just doesn't create for others like Russ does. The Wizards have had Beal for years and he shines best (as he's proving now) when he has someone else to run that backcourt with him and be a complementary player and a finisher and scorer like he can focus on now.

The proof is Wizards have had Beal there and their team was a straight lottery team. He's a lot like PG13 in that he's a great complementary player but if he's your one-star he's not making guys around him better. Beal is someone that raises your ceiling, not your floor. That's why so many contending teams are after him.

 

Yep, I've been watching that Curry thread and I don't know how its even an argument still. He's clearly put the team on his back and is carrying them but people still have residual hate for these players. I feel like Giannis, Curry, and Russ most hated players on this forum and they all have one thing in common.

 

I don’t disagree with everything you said here.

I agree that of the slew of players I listed that I believe would help a team win more over an ENTIRE season most are not remotely close to capable of reaching the highs that Westbrook is still capable of. But they also don’t have as many gut wrenching lows.

My argument would be that had the Wizards had a steady league average PG all season rather than the volatile Westbrook they wouldn’t NEED a player to go supernova toward the end of the season to sneak into the playoffs in a shitty conference. They would comfortably be there already with Beal being as awesome as he has been all season.

I have never argued that he isn’t exciting to watch. Never argued that he has always been a bad player. Never argued that his peaks aren’t some of the best ever. My argument has been the same for years now. Since his AMAZING MVP year it’s been downhill. A steady decline that has reached well below the impact level he once had and one that over en entire season doesn’t help you win a ton.

 

nt determination here as well.

 

Russ is a great player who can do lots of things. If you use a label as a low IQ player for Russ, then all other arguments are not needed anymore. The rockets trading Russ to DC was a mistake too because they think Russ is an average player, but he is not.