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Conditions of victory are often vastly misunderstood and understated

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by r35352, May 11, 2004.

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  1. r35352

    r35352 Member

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    When people talk about "victory" in a conflict or struggle, defining what this means is far more complex and difficult than many realize. Tragically, this lack of understanding and comprehension extends to national leaders. It is for this reason that the US was defeated in Vietnam, the USSR was defeated in Afganistan and the US faces defeat in Iraq.

    First, let's look at Vietnam. At first glance, it would seem that "victory" there was a simple matter. Victory meant preserving the existence of an anti-communist South Vietnam from takeover by North Vietnam. However, there were many other implicit conditions of victory which when viewed in totality made defeat in Vietnam inevitable. These conditions were:
    1. Prevent S Vietnam from takeover by North
    2. Maintain a compliant pro-US regime in South
    3. Facilitate finding of guerrillas by burning down villages and homes
    and rounding up anyone remotely suspected of being N Vietnamese agents
    4. Expect widespread support of US efforts and of S Vietnam regime from
    S Vietnamese
    5. Achieve said goals without letting war escalate to WWIII
    - which meant not invading N Vietnam (otherwise PRC might intervene)
    - which meant not invading neighboring N Vietnamese allies (like Cambodia)
    - which meant not attacking USSR or PRC even though they were a source
    of infinite supply to N Vietnamese troops
    6. Achieve said goals with minimal US troops and minimal US casualties and
    without the need for indefinite US involvement.

    These were probably other "implicit" conditions of victory that I've not mentioned but suffice it say, it should be self-evident that victory in Vietnam was basically impossible because many of these conditions were in clear contradiction. Eventually Ford realized this, pulled-out of S Vietnam and allowed it to be swallowed by N Vietnam.

    Now let us look at Iraq today. At first glance, "victory" seemed a simple matter of toppling Saddam's regime. But of course this alone was obviously insufficient. The total conditions of victory are more like this:
    1. Topple Saddam regime
    2. Establish law and order and maintain basic services througout all of Iraq
    3. Prevent break-up and civil war in Iraq
    4. Near total de-Baathification of Iraq
    5. Prevent establishment of Shiite dominated regime that might be pro-Iran
    (In other words, establish a new compliant pro-US regime in Iraq)
    6. Facilitate the finding of insurgents and extracting information by ramsaking
    homes, repudiating Geneva Convention, and rounding up and treating Iraqis
    inhumanely on the flimsiest of suspicions.
    7. Expect and maintain widespread and overwhelming support of US effort and
    of the new Iraqi regime from most Iraqis
    8. Maintain total control of Iraqi reconstruction and nation-building (ie. no UN, etc)
    9. Accomplish all this with minimal US forces and minimal US casualties and
    in a short period of time

    My list is probably not exhaustive but even this list makes clear that defeat
    in Iraq could have been forseen as inevitable given all these conditions.
     
  2. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    Good post. You bring up a point similar to one I had previosuly been making about democracy-through-occupation and the difficulty of doing it today. I think you've done a better job of expressing it than I have -- that there are multiple and sometimes contradictory goals for success. In Iraq, the big contradiction seems to me to be finding insurgents (your #6) versus being held to a high standard for democracy and protection of civil rights.
     
  3. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Member

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    Great post. In armed conflict, total "victory" is virtually impossible.
     
  4. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    One of the things I agreed with GWB on during his campaign is that we should not engage in "nation building."

    Vietnam and Iraq are two examples of why.
     
  5. Dubious

    Dubious Member

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    I don't think anybody would expect to approach the goals you state. Here's what I would call success in Iraq.

    1. Oust Saddam (mission accomplished)
    2. Establish the a basis for an elected govenment inside a muslim country that is only influenced not controlled by the the Islamic theocracy.
    3.Develop a Iraqi Security force that understands it's job is to serve the people not subdue them.
    4. Foster cooperation between the factions within Iraq to avoid civil war.
    5.Rebuild enough of Iraq's infrastructure so that the people achieve a basic level quality of life and enough of the oil industry so that they can finance their own advancement.

    I don't think anyone could expect a Little America or even as secular a government as Turkey. A less theocratic Iran or a more democratic Pakistan is about the best we can hope for. I would think we will see 50 thousand plus troops in Iraq for a decade, more to assist the Iraqi government than to direct it and to serve as a deterrant to the establishment of an autocracy by any clerics, sheiks or strongman since that is the normal course for mideastern politics. We of course will maintain a spook presence to root out Al Qeda factions. The will have connections at the highest levels of the Iraqi defense force. That may alarm some people but it wouldn't make any sense to let Iraq be a free base for terrorist.
     
  6. snowmt01

    snowmt01 Member

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    This war has caused deep hatred between both parties.
    There is no victory.
     
  7. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    Great topic.

    The definition of victory should not be a subjective matter. It should be clearly outlined by the Commander In Chief with definable objectives.

    Without definable objectives and stratagies to facilitate those objectives...by definition...there can be no victory.

    So here's my simplistic interpretation of the objectives (since I don't recall that W ever effectively communicated them).

    Objective 1: topple Saddam. (success)
    Objective 2: Regieme change (In progress, outcome questionable)
     
  8. r35352

    r35352 Member

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    Well if you want to simplify it, then Objective 2 should be stated "Nation Building" which would encompass "regime chance, build infrastructure, etc". Perhaps I am oversimplifying but from the onset of war to now, the impression I have always gotten was that the Bush II regime considered it to be "victory" once Objective 1 was accomplished and then everything else would just fall into place. This was obviously a fantasy and extremely naive view but there is every reason for me to think that this is what Bush's neocon advisors believed.

    The Bush I regime a decade ago seemed to realize this and set the condition for victory as "liberate Kuwait" and "contain and weaken Saddam regime". He achieved these goals completely and Gulf War I was a near complete victory. Even back then he and his team had the forsight to realize that if the goal had been expanded back then "remove Saddam" and "rebuild Iraq", that if would have resulted in disaster.
     

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