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James Dolan vs Tilman Fertitta

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by tinman, Nov 3, 2020.

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Who's the better NBA owner

  1. Tilman

    57 vote(s)
    43.5%
  2. Dolan

    74 vote(s)
    56.5%
  1. DonatelloLimestone

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    Yea they've got an interesting PR team, abc houston did a special on tillman kids calling them the most eligible bachelors

    "
    The only question which seemed to catch them off guard was whether they would call themselves Houston's most eligible bachelors.

    "Truly, it's the hardest question you could have asked. It's the one I'm going to get in trouble for," said the Fertittas. "I'll plead the 5th on that one. I'll plead the 5th.""

    https://abc13.com/tilman-fertitta-michael-patrick-rockets/2704534/

    It really doesn't seem that he's that far off from the self delusion of his Pop and the lack of self awareness seems inherited too

    I can't seem to figure out how to link the mural photo, but obviously its tillmans photo prominently featured twice, no morey, barely anyone else and only Tillman and Eric Gordon remain...what a dream scenerio.
     
  2. DonatelloLimestone

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    Dolan didn't inherit a team with a generational talent and competing on our best year, one game/injury from the finals, then preceed to ignore all of our bird rights, TPE, use our draft picks to get under the tax, also the replacements we did sign even at the minimum were cut while they were in our rotation to save tax money..that was just his first full year.

    Chased out a guy who established family, business, and home roots in houston.

    Then hes one of the few owners who would plaster his face all over the arena to be the face, grabs a mike and volunteers to goto the media often and then gets caught lying about it, you really won't find many owners with his track record and the fact that he confesses...aka brags about it too is almost unprecedented. Be it ESPN or realgm, in a few short years tillman was the fastest to now hes scraping the bottom of the barrel where his name is synonymous with Dolan, Sarver, Sterling. We've never witnessed such a fast burn down and he's saved money and won the last few years while houstonians suffer through some sort of never ending rebuild where we saw our President, GM, Coach, associate head coach, and Star players walk away from guaranteed money to leave this clown.

    Dolan is terrible, sustained terrible. Their egos and delusions and lack of self awareness have hurt the team culture, except Tillman is the same but won't spend, dolan will and thats a bare minimum in the modern nba. among the owners who bought in the 'new' nba worth billions, hes the only one accused of being this cheap.

    Sad thing is that as a local, he could've gone down as an absolute legend if he just heeded his own advice, and shut up and listened. Instead we got Dollar Value Dolan
    GoRockets
     
    Der Rabbi and YOLO like this.
  3. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    The only thing that makes ferntits better is that he's cheap and under debt, so you can hope he unclenches his anus when his personal wealth rises out of junk bond status.

    Dolan don't gaf and uses the Knicks as a status symbol
     
  4. ico4498

    ico4498 Member
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    when your only possible peer is Dolan ...
     
  5. DonatelloLimestone

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    Yea neither of their words mean much, both terrible owners. Difference is Dolan will spend money. NBA owners especially in this age of billions shouldn't even need to be discussed, I wish I could give tillman a copy of the inspiring nyt best seller, Shut up and Listen. But luckily we have a new generation of young talent and Patrick fertitta with his ability to "relate to the players more" will shepard us into a new era of winning from what he learned in Private HS basketball and spending half the day with his father as he built up debt and taped a reality show. Thanks a lot Les, Silver, Tilly. Houston deserves better than this.
     
  6. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    NY Knicks getting love inside TC

     
  7. DonatelloLimestone

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    Generally I hear tilman's name with Dolan(similar egos, but Tillman wants to be the face and is more outspoken, more importantly for fans the most an owner offers is finances, dolan will spend-tilman will not even when we're close), Sarver, and Sterling. Yet he maybe getting to the bottom of the barrel at absolute record time. He maybe the poster boy and inspiration for otherowners to tell the fans and anyone to F off, lie to their face, and prioritize your profits thus Landry-nizing the Rockets
     
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  8. tmac2therack

    tmac2therack Member

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    Wish our fans would do something like the Man Utd fans did today. Tilman needs to be out.
     
  9. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    Our rebuild won’t take 15 years like the Knicks

    So all you Knicks fans can celebrate tonight like you won something

    @Reeko
     
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  10. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    Lol.
    Perception vs reality.
    They’ll only protest if the hot dogs get too expensive
     
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  11. DonatelloLimestone

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    Ha we don't have to go that far. We should put in a tip jar and get a billboard with a short and sweet message, do better, dollarvaluedolan, elon buy the rockets, just a little something that when you constantly have lied time and time again, pointed fingers in your first 3 years, the fans are not that dumb. Not most of them anyways.
     
  12. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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  13. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    Idk how anyone is acting like Glen Taylor, Michael Jordan, and Vivek Ranadive don't exist.

    The Westbrook trade was objectively awful. Ymmv on how anomalous you think Tilman's avoiding the luxury tax is but not shelling out $40 million for Ariza's 34 year old season might not be in the top 50 cheapest moves of the last decade in the NBA.

    Since the WB trade he's promoted someone in Stone who seems pretty competent, seems to have mostly stayed out of his way, and has generally been pretty magnanimous any time he gives a public statement like after the Harden trade.

    I'd much rather look at the glass as half full.
     
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  14. DonatelloLimestone

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    You can put it a lot of ways about Ariza, you can say you're paying a 15 million fee on top just to not degress and get worse. but when you're in contention mode, we had generational talent, one game from the finals. You don't degress, warriors and even the small market thunder paid 33 million in luxury tax in their time. You can call it bad business, but thats why this is a billionaires game. thats why its a legacy buy, a showcase guy, not for someone who needs to make his yearly numbers work. you can do that when you're not contending, but the way the nba economcis work, the players get hte leverage when you're at the cap and you have a chance to compete.

    Likewise Marc Gasol at 34/35 was not worth for the raptors 50 milliion, they took a swing, the ball bounced the right way bc margins in the playoffs-as we know- are very small. Likewise the cavs overpaid for Klove, Jr, and Tristan. They didn't have leverage, but they had a generational talent and they went in, history was made. Its what it takes to get the Chip in nba economics. Warriors are still paying tax, brand building, and they took a previous laughing stock of a franchise and made it a destination let alone upgrading facilities, fan experience, and now they ran it like a silicon valley building the bones, the foundation, brand and reaping profits and benefit later. Like I said the mistake is takign this billion dollar asset and pretending its a restaurant or some mom and pop shop.

    Further more I'm not sure why you deduce Ariza:
    Former Houston Rockets guard Chris Paul was on the Knuckleheads podcast with Darius Miles and Quentin Richardson and explained the impact of the Rockets losing Ariza.

    “People don’t realize, that’s the biggest thing that we missed. That was tough when we lost [Ariza] because he sorta was like the glue. He was that glue for our team.”

    I'm not sure how you measure cohesion, chemistry, because baksetball is human game, its a fluid game. Its not as stat dependent without variables like baseball. You could replace Ariza's stats, not ariza. Miami is paying haslem who hasnt played a meaningful minute in years just for the culture. These details can make a difference in the locker room, in the overall culture, and in this case harden and paul as well.

    That said, ok, lets go with you're premise that ariza just wasn't the right move. So where do you go from there when we are in our window, close to the title? We had Trade exceptions over 10 million, didnt use. We had MLE, we didn't use it. In fact we went on to sign James Ennis as our wing for the minimum contract. We traded him while he was in our rotation that febuary for...a top 55 protected 2nd round pick.

    A month before that, we cut our dleage pick up, also in our rotation, for two months for no reason other than to wait till it was cap friendly. Players notice this culture, harden wasn't resting during this time, he was still playing heavy minutes, heavy games, useage and just coming back to empty lockers.

    Furthermore, go back to title teams in history. J Paxon, STeve Kerr, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, robert horry, derek fisher, Sean elliot, avery johnson..you can go each year and see vets that aren't "headliners" or worth their contract that you can say what you said about ariza and they make vital plays, game winning shots that change history. basketball is not played 1-1, let alone that we even cheaped out on Ariza's replacements:



    "The Warriors spent $49.63 million in penalties over the last five seasons, while even the small-market Thunder spent $33.73 million. There was no excuse for Houston to not open up the checkbook. This is a franchise located in the fourth-biggest metro area in the U.S. that has had a superstar in the prime of his career"

    "
    This refusal to spend money became farcical once Alexander sold the team to Tilman Fertitta in 2017. Fertitta spent so much money ($2.2 billion) to purchase the Rockets that he may not have had the liquidity to go into the red to build a title contender. Houston was a laughingstock around the league for the amount of juggling it had to do to stay under the tax. The best example came at the trade deadline last season, when Morey used a future first-round pick to shed the salaries of Brandon Knight and Marquese Chriss. There was no basketball reason for the move. It was just done to cut costs. It’s not that Knight and Chriss would have helped the Rockets. But there were certainly a lot of better things that Morey could have used that pick for.

    Houston also spent that season in a bizarre staring contest with Danuel House Jr. House is the kind of diamond in the rough that Morey routinely uncovered in Houston, an undrafted free agent on a two-way contract who would become a starting-caliber wing. The problem was that players on those deals can spend only 45 days with the NBA team during the season before their contracts have to be converted. Money in Houston was so tight that Morey had to send House back to the G League when he wouldn’t sign a below-market long-term deal. He replaced House with two players he signed off the street (Gerald Green and Kenneth Faried) before bringing him back right before the playoffs. It’s not like House was asking for the world. He signed a three-year, $11 million contract in the offseason. But even that was more than Morey could offer at the time."


    Glen Taylor is terrible ,MJ has had a bad record, So has vivek, like dolan they have deservingly bad reps as owners so far...all of them spend more than tilman. All of them bought in a time nba was far cheaper, and all of them are in much smaller markets except dolan who spends big. Thats what an ownership can offer in the nba, finances. And tilman in a few short years has driven away anyoen with a reputation or expereince from our franchise. No matter how you spin it, hes at the bottom of the barrel with sterling in terms of reputation on the franchise no less beyond the off court stuff, and hes vocal about lying about it to any fans who will still listen, this you?
     
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  15. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    Spending isn't really that much of an advantage in the NBA with the way the cap works. It's the incremental bit to stay as an elite/competitive team for longer. Prior to this season, over the last 19 years the Knicks had 3 winning records and two of those they were barely over .500.

    Before the Thunder paid a big tax bill they traded Harden for a paltry return over going like $4 million into the tax.

    This offseason the Celtics let Hayward walk for nothing to avoid paying a big tax bill.

    The Bucks let Malcolm Brogdon walk for nothing over tax concerns.

    Sarver was giving away top 10 picks back when the tax was just dollar for dollar with no repeater.

    Arison amnestied Mike Miller and really pissed off Lebron in the process.

    Bob Myers is the exception and GSW generates a lot more revenue. Gilbert paid a ton of money in taxes, but that was in part because Lebron had a ton of leverage over him with signing those year to year deals and those terrible deals Lebron forced on Gilbert also made their rebuild more difficult. Gilbert is also on another level of rich. I'm sure Balmer would pay whatever it took, but there's a lot of history that most owners don't do that.

    You can quibble with each move and the probably 100+ other tax avoiding moves in NBA history and how similar it is or is not to the Rockets tax avoidance, but the main differentiator in a good and a bad NBA franchise is hiring smart people and generally letting them work and also having some luck. Not shelling out $40 million for Ariza's 34 year old season isn't the kind of thing that's going to make an organization like the Knicks were for that 20 year stretch, or like the Bobcats have been or the Kings have been. Making trades like the WB trade are what makes that happen, but after this season I'm encouraged that's not what this organization is going to continue doing.

    Also, the Thunder and Cavs both paid their big bills but they are both rebuilding now just like we are.
     
    #215 ChillyPete32, May 11, 2021
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
  16. DonatelloLimestone

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    YEa, they paid big bills and shot their shot. Cavs won out, Thunder went to the finals. There are no guaranteed wins, the margins of a finals are close. If you're all about rings like the nets, like the clippers, like the warriors...notice the new age owners who buy in for the billions which is the new nba economics, you simple raise the bar. Not to mention the tv money, nba revenue continues and will continue to grow, be prepared for much more expensive contracts.

    This isn't an exact science, people spend and don't win, but the point is thats the biggest asset these owners can give is finances. Now more than every. Many of the owners you cited buy indecades ago are in a different league now, with diferent economics.

    Gilbert paiad, bc they had a generational talent who was all about winning, he bought them their first ring in ages.

    Tilman touts that he is one of the richest, he refuses to take minority owners like the much less rich warriors
    :eek:ut of pride". And yesMicky Arison did amnesty Mike Miller who was also a glue guy, helped the culture, you really can't quantify these things especially with something as elusive as a title. Mav Carter went on to say that was a big part of lebron losing trust and realizing he didn't want to be there anymore and its fair game. They made 100s o millions in revenue, sales, attention off of lebron coming there, then they cheaped out after two rings on mike miller? terrible. These owners see wild growth intheir values and once again, this isn't a business where you amek day to day profits, these are showcase legacy buys. Now more than ever

    And ofcourse tilman bought in the peak. Went to the media of how rich he is and will make this a winner, lied to us over and over again. its a different story whre you can find his quotes that outright disrespect the fans. Maybe only Donald Sterling is on that level.

    Ariza was a one year cost, huge part of the chemistry of this team as noted by chris paul calling him the missing piece the next year, but I guess you know more about the value on the court then Chris Paul? In Any case, lets say you're right and a one year lump sum income isn't worth to run it back when we're healthy, we replaced him not even with mid level, not even with bird rights, with minimums, who we then cut for picks. Thats bottom of the barrel stuff, its undeniable.

    Its a bit odd, celtics let him walk because he also didn't play half the games and hes in the wrong end of 30 afterwards, let alone...where are the celtics now, from people thinking they might contend to the play in. Then you cite the knicsk, the abomination of the league ,but they swing at runs at least. Tilman talks and brags and lies more than dolan, and spends less and still hurts our perception and culture, he is really dollar value dolan, but you're also streching to find one or too anecdotal comparasions and not looking at the trend of the league.

    Bucks made a mistake letting brogdon walk, its a bit odd that you're leaving out the whole story, they are now paying jrue holiday over 30 million. Value? probably not, but the value in not having leverage, keeping giannis a gneerational star, and competing...thats what its about.

    you're going to fall behind if you try to run this thing like a landry's. It sounds like you want is prepetual mediocrity with some luck of a hope 1 in a100 years for a homerun. You know who wins in that case? not the fans who saw tilman raise prices when 90 percent of his moves were to save money, just tilman. Are you a tilman fan, or a rockets fan?
     
  17. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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  18. SuperKev

    SuperKev Contributing Member

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    What's truly sad is this sort of comparison is even possible.
     
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  19. DatRocketFan

    DatRocketFan Member

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    Last time Knicks made playoff was 2012-2013 (8 years ago, I just checked).

    Let's hope our "rebuild" is shorter than 8 years I guess, if we want to "beat the knicks" in rebuild time.

    Where did u pull that magically 15 years?
     
  20. ico4498

    ico4498 Member
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    adding Glen Taylor, Michael Jordan, and Vivek Ranadive as potential peers doesn't rehabilitate Mr. Fertitta's image. just boosts his notoriety. at this point though, he should probably double down and just ride with proud infamy.

    totally at a loss in understanding Tilman's dee ... why does anyone even bother?
     

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