Have you seen season 2 of 24? If one is an extra-national (not affiliated with a country) terrorist, then they are not technically due any rights under the Geneva Convention. If someone like that is captured and they can give information regarding a terrorist attack, torture may be the only way to save the lives of Americans. This situation doesn't qualify.
Bring up something positive, then you have to throw in the negative; "fringe". I suppose if you want to call me a "fringe", you can. I don't believe the unneccesary torture (murder and rape is wrong) is acceptable, but if the enemy knows something, then you will need to get harsh to get your information. And yes, twist my words around all you want, although I clearly state where I stand on my issue. What baffles me is its a shocker to the world that this has happened. I don't know the circumstances on all these issues, but I do believe most of the cases were uncalled for and wrong. If you can't see this is just a case of "Wag the Dog", then you're as blind as a bat. These things happen in our own local police custody and prisions and everyone is shocked its happening in a war prision??? And most are more upset that were abusing prisioners of war than our own troops getting dragged down the streets of bagdad ... and then have the nerve to blame our troops because we're not suppose to be there or they were just "contractors". Never ceases to amaze me how people these days only follow what the media wants them to follow.
IIRC, the last time a prison in America was exposed as having abused prisoners by putting them on leashes, making them crawl around, siccing dogs on them, and sodomizing with foreign objects (it happened in Texas), there was a huge investigation, Missouri pulled their prisoners out of their contract, and several people were canned. It shouldn't happen in prisons here and it definitely shouldn't happen in a situation where we are trying to win the hearts and minds of the people of the country we are occupying.
I brought up the fringe, because of how small a percentage they were. When this came out and I first heard Rush and Hannity, and one of the guests on Hannity trying rationalize I guessed that the polarization going on would continue. However, I was pleased to see people in both parties of congress, the President, Generals, everyone coming out against these actions. I was happy and relieved to discover that Rush, and Hannity and those like them were truly exposed as the fringe, and the rest of America stood firmly against this kind of thing. I was happy because a part of me was relieved. I always believed that as America we stood for freedom, justice, and had certain values etc. I knew that sometimes our govt. didn't always act that way and have done things that are shameful in the past. Then when I saw these pictures and read the reports, I was worried that I had been wrong, that our country has no ideals, values, or any of things that I loved about America. Well I was happy to see by people's reaction that it wasn't the case. The fact is that those who rationalize these actions are the fringe, and they are a distinct miniortiy out of touch with America's core belief, and overwhelming majority of it's population. I didn't think there was any negative. But it could just be my view point. I thought it was all positive, that what I thought represented a significant population of the country, only represented a desperate few. As for torture, according to Sy Hersh most intel people say that torture is a way to get bad information, and not as helpful. They will tell you what they think you want to hear, rather than the truth, because that is what will get the torture to stop. Yes things like this have happened in our own police stations, but to my knowledge the police haven't done a report saying that it's widespread, but rather limited to a few goons. Just to correct a few errors in your post. Our troops were dragged down the streets of Fallujah not Bagdad. Some of us were upset enough to know the details. Who says we are more upset by that than by torture? That's your own guess or one of some talk show persona trying to somehow put down those that speak out against torture.
Good point Green...I can't spit when I hear Bush's name...but he did the right thing with humility and respect. As much as I would LOVE to, I can't take THAT away from him.
Those soldiers crossed the line into demented, perverse behavior and should be punished. I doubt after the revelations on Drudge anyone can excuse what they did- because I sure as hell am not. But how much is Rummy and GWB accountable for the actions of a depraved few? I don't see this as systemic, but we should punish the guilty according to the dictates of the UCMJ and let it go. More apologies are not going to make a very bad situation better, but worse.
Bama I'm glad to see that you condemn this behavior now that you know how bad it was. However, I don't think it can be dismissed as the actions of a depraved few. It seems the two most comprehensive reports on the situation (the Taguba report and report by the Red Cross) both cite systemic, widespread abuse.
Senator 'Outraged by Outrage' at Prison Abuse Tue May 11, 2004 11:33 AM ET WASHINGTON (Reuters) - As others condemned the reported abuse of Iraqi prisoners, U.S. Sen. James Inhofe on Tuesday expressed outrage at the worldwide outrage over the treatment by American soldiers of those he called "terrorists" and "murderers." "I'm probably not the only one up at this table that is more outraged by the outrage than we are by the treatment," the Oklahoma Republican said at a U.S. Senate hearing probing the scandal. "These prisoners, you know they're not there for traffic violations," Inhofe said. "If they're in cellblock 1-A or 1-B, these prisoners, they're murderers, they're terrorists, they're insurgents. Many of them probably have American blood on their hands and here we're so concerned about the treatment of those individuals." Coalition military intelligence officers estimated that about 70 percent to 90 percent of the thousands of prisoners detained in Iraq had been "arrested by mistake," according to a report by Red Cross given to the Bush administration last year and leaked this week. The report also said the mistreatment of prisoners apparently tolerated by U.S. and other coalition forces in Iraq involved widespread abuse that was "in some cases tantamount to torture." In heated remarks at odds with others on the Senate committee who took aim at the U.S. military's handling of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad, Inhofe said that American sympathies should lie with U.S. troops. "I am also outraged that we have so many humanitarian do-gooders right now crawling all over these prisons looking for human rights violations, while our troops, our heroes are fighting and dying," he said. Inhofe, who visited Iraq in March, is described on his senatorial Web site as a leading conservative voice in the Senate, advocating "common sense Oklahoma values including less government, less regulation, lower taxes, fiscal responsibility and a strong national defense." http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=5106409
Not sure if you've followed the Sept 11 panel closely in this regard, but Cohen is the one who has been publicly and privately blamed on both sides about his unwillingness to get the DoD involved in anti-terror operations in the 90's. I don't think he would be a tenable choice.
Sam: 3 in 10 don't consider this a serious offense? 2 in 10 are not bothered? Crazy. I can see how many would disagree that these abuses are representative, or possibly that they discredit the 'good' being done in Iraq....but not even 'bothered?' We are indeed polarized. Talk radio's audience is secure.
