And GS doesn't have multiple stars either. So now you look at the supporting casts. For instance, compare the Blazers and Warriors. The Blazers supporting cast (McCollum, Nurkic, Kanter, Covington, Carmelo, etc...) easily outclasses the GSW supporting cast (Draymond Green, Oubre, Wiggins). Curry is better than Lillard, but is he so much better that it offsets the gap between the supporting casts? No way. You really don't understand how weak the GSW supporting cast is, especially their size. Because of this, they lack a defensive anchor and have below-average rebounding. The Blazers, Mavericks, and Grizzlies all have size. Additionally, Draymond Green isn't a scoring threat, Oubre averages 13+ FGA with a TS% of 52.8%, and Wiseman isn't ready to make an impact at the NBA level. It's simply not a good team. I know it's an outdated stat, but look at their PER. 15 is average, right? Jordan Poole is at 15.1. Everyone else (except Curry) is below 15 (though Wiggins is close at 14.8). Porzingis has made one ASG, but he's 25 years old and this is the 2nd year in a row where he's averaged about 20 ppg and 10 rpg. Do you doubt that he has all-star impact? He's in a much different situation than Iguodala, a 37 year old veteran who made an all-star team once in his career. McCollum was clearly playing at an all-star level before he got hurt. But you're right, he wasn't named to the team. He was playing so well that I thought he had been named to the team and then replaced due to injury. Look at the Grizzlies roster......they're loaded with quality players, especially Valanciunas. As for the Spurs, I don't know. They've exceeded my expectations, but I don't think they'll make the playoffs.
Lol ive never heard anyone say the grizzlies are loaded. Youre just overrating these other rosters Steph curry is 6'3 on a good day so I dont think hes helping their size either. Maybe these other players arent up to par on offense because they are playing off a mediocre playmaker while having to covering for him on the other end. Harden seemed to be able to make the playoffs just fine with an undersized roster. Im sure 7ft kd can, lebron can. Giannis would have no problems. Jokic would have no problems...
Iguodala may have been the number one option of Philly for several years, but they were lottery teams. In fact, when they finally had a winning record in 2012, Iguodala was the team's 4th leading scorer at 12.4ppg. He made the all-star team that year. So no. Not worthy of star accreditation. Not even close. It's a perfectly fine argument. You stated "Draymond Green is literally the best defender of the modern era." If that were true, he'd have more than 1 DPOY. There's a difference between "having a case for being the best defender in his era" and "literally the best defender in his era." Do you understand the difference? You stated that Rodman would be "actually useless on the Warriors on offense." Given that he's one of the best offensive rebounders in league history, that's a demonstrably false statement. So now you're trying to move goal posts? Wrong again. Defenses wanted to leave Draymond Green open because he's a poor 3pt shooter. He averaged 39% one year, but for the rest of his career, he's been terrible. His career average is 31.6%. He's averaging 25.6% this year. When he shoots a 3, that's a win for the defense. Shaq would utterly embarrass Draymond Green. In 2017, the Rockets lost to the Spurs without Kawhi Leonard and Tony Parker. They definitely weren't beating a Curry/Durant/K.Thompson/Iguodala Warriors team. The Warriors also beat the Cavs pretty handily that year. Would a Curry/Durant/K.Thompson/Iguodala Warriors team have won 2 titles? Maybe, maybe not. Would they have won at least 1? I think so. So was DeMarcus Cousins and Harrison Barnes. What's your point? Again, basketball is a meritocracy. If you hope to "command respect", you need to back it up with your skills. Wrong. Harden does what he wants. Tucker isn't going to change his mind. Wrong. You're ignoring player egos. They've spent their whole lives being told they're the best and believing it to be true. Do you really think they're going to follow an offensively inept player? No, you really don't understand player mentality. These guys can lead and be led, but when push comes to shove, they're going to lead. In other words, if they win, it's going to be on their terms. Sure, Lebron respected Rondo, but at the end of the day, if they disagree about something, it's going to be Lebron calling the shots. In other words, he prioritized himself over winning. Curry, Green, Thompson, and Iguodala all recruited KD. If Green really wanted to win, he wouldn't have mouthed off to Durant. He would've tried to keep Durant in Golden State. Missing bad shots doesn't make you a great shooter. Which advanced numbers are you looking at? Because Philly wasn't very good when he was the #1 guy. No, that's my response. You're ignoring how much space he's being given. Given that amount of space, most ball-dominant guards could make the same passes. Wood has played in 30 of the Rockets 53 games. John Wall has played in 34 games. Do you see where I'm going with this? Which numbers are you looking at? Are the Warriors still a top 10 defense? Or are they now #21? You misunderstood my point. Hypothetically, let's assume that Wood is a great defensive player. Well, he missed 23 games out of 53, right? What happens to the Rockets' defense during those 23 games? It tanks, right? And that lowers their defensive rating, right? Right now, if I'm starting a team from scratch, I'd rather have Wood over Draymond Green.
No, you just need to keep reading until you see a period. "loaded with quality players, especially Valanciunas."
wekko368 Blah, blah, blah. You don't need a good team to get to the playoffs if you have a superstar on the roster. A SUPERSTAR is supposed to be able to overcome a garbage team and make the playoffs anyway. Why should we not expect Curry to do that? We do for other superstars. All I'm reading is a bunch of excuses and instances of blaming others. If you have a superstar the playoffs are the expectation, period. Curry is on his way to failing two seasons in a row. And since you tried to gloss over it, the Blazers, Grizz and Spurs DO NOT have more than one all-star player on the roster. Basic facts....they don't. And Iggy, who you tried to clown, made the ASG two years prior to coming to GS, where he sacrificed his game and willingly took a smaller role. Porzingis last made it three seasons ago.
The Warriors supporting cast is bad enough that one can't easily doubt that Curry is still a great player despite their mediocre performance as a team so far. He's still putting up fantastic overall numbers (both box score and advanced), efficiently, despite being the obvious focus of the defense every night. ... But I believe his cast is not so bad that it's easy to claim he's crazy, megastar, unanimous-MVP-level, elite anymore. Any of the league's 3-4 true elite now or in their prime would almost certainly have this team in playoff position IMO (LeBron, Harden, Durant...). They wouldn't have much shot at a title, but they'd be a winning team. I think those guys would be making one or two more of these scrubs look like studs. Granted, there's also an argument that this Curry (at 32 and post-injury) is just not quite as good as the MVP Curry from a few years ago, but his individual production doesn't seem to back up that idea. He's at least very close.
Again, it comes down to relative strength which is something you fail to understand. You're clearly sticking to an unrealistic point b/c we're talking about Curry. And now you expected him to lead the Warriors to the playoffs last year despite breaking a bone? Your standards for him are unreasonably high.
I don't fail to understand it. I see teams above him that don't have multiple all-star players on the roster as you falsely claim. You are arguing about relative strength when freaking Ja Morant is leading teams to better records. It's a pathetic excuse. I expect my superstar to be durable and play games. Your talent doesn't matter if you can't stay on the court. Not at all. I hold him to the same standards as other superstar players. They shouldn't be in the lotto, even on a bad team (which he's not).
When Harden led the Rockets to the 8th seed, seeds 5-7 didn't have an all-star on their roster. Currently, the top 7 seeds have an all-star. Relative strength. You fail to understand it.
Yea his team was bad. Bradley Beal just made an all start teams but his teams were bad. Iguodala was a great passer, defender and a decent scorer. His impact metrics paint him as an all start caliber player. You can’t argue with the stars and no amount of hand waiving by you can change that. It’s an incredibly bad argument lol. DPOY isn’t end all be all when discussing who the actual best just like MVP. Using accolades as the only way to judge someone’s defensive impact is archaic and frankly wrong. He has more of a case than anyone else lmao. You are getting caught up in semantics while not refitting my point. Do you? Like really, do you? Rodman would be way less useful than Draymond on offense. Thats what we have always been discussing. Rodman relative to Draymond. Rodman being a great rebounder doesn’t offset the complete and utter zero he is every where else on offense. Why are you being obtuse? This is what the comparison has been about. Offensive rebounds are the least useful skill on offense. It’s not even a contest when compared to Draymond’s passing and IQ. The defense when guarding the Warriors in previous years didn’t have a choice. Sure he’s not a good shooter but he at least had the ability to hit timely threes. Rodman can’t. And again you are missing the point that RODMAN can’t shoot period. Draymond is better than him as a shooter. So again you are missing the point and are trying to bury it with more semantics. Draymond is a better defensive player than Shaq though which is what this is about. I have no idea what the point of this post is. I’m talking about the Rockets with Chris Paul, though I still disagree. But also yea the Spurs definitely could have beaten them without Green. Lmao dude when you take away their best defensive player that changes the whole dynamic of the series. The Cavs with Lebron and Kyrie absolutely beat them. And they win no titles. Watch the video I posted. I keep telling you over and over. They win no tilted without Draymond, zilch nada. Go check Green’s advanced numbers for the playoffs and get back to me. Demarcus Cousins was an all star caliber player and Harrison Barnes was also a very good player as well. My point is that if Draymond weren’t respected by people who matter he would not have gotten selected. There, done the end. He backs it up with his defense, passing and IQ. He has also done this many times in the playoffs over and over. He would get that respect. Nope, you don’t know Tucker and you don’t know Harden. You have no idea what their relationship is like. What? You can have multiple leaders for a team, it’s not hard. This is just a cartoonish view of how it actually is. But even if it was like that, how does it denigrate Rondo’s role on the team, it doesn’t. This was after he won 3 titles. Shaq was no longer hungry but Kobe still was. Dudes who want to win badly don’t usually have problems with each other. It was Draymond who was the main guy. Draymond was friends with KD before he joined the team. Draymond was the lead recruiter first and foremost. Mouthed off lol. Dude, they got into a heated argument. Draymond says some things he shouldn’t have but Durant had already been very unhappy in Golden State. [QUOTE="wekko368, post: 13518034, member: 29783”] Missing bad shots doesn't make you a great shooter. [/QUOTE] Your shot attempts and what kind of shots you take matter when judging someone as a shooter. Shot profile matters. If you don’t get that, we can stop here.
BPM and VORP. Not everyone can carry trash rosters, you can still be all star calibur and not carry a team to the playoffs. Only like the top of the top can. I refer you to the podcast I linked you and the video as well. Most ball handlers aren’t making those type of passes even with space. And finally you are still ofborimg the value Draymond provided by having that ability at his position. That’s still a large sample size. Wood has played enough games to where the Rockets should be higher than where they are defensively. 30 games is a large enough sample size. Woods has played the last like 10 games and in that stretch we are still the second worst defense in the league. EPM, LEBRON, RAPTOR. But defensive metrics aren’t like super good though so take that with a grain of salt. They are top 10, and they have been top 10 all year. It was Draymond who was the main guy. Draymond was friends with KD before he joined the team. Draymond was the lead recruiter first and foremost. Mouthed off lol. Dude, they got into a heated argument. Draymond says some things he shouldn’t have but Durant had already been very unhappy in Golden State. BPM and VORP. Not everyone can carry trash rosters, you can still be all star calibur and not carry a team to the playoffs. Only like the top of the top can. I refer you to the podcast I linked you and the video as well. Most ball handlers aren’t making those type of passes even with space. And finally you are still ofborimg the value Draymond provided by having that ability at his position. That’s still a large sample size. Wood has played enough games to where the Rockets should be higher than where they are defensively. 30 games is a large enough sample size. Woods has played the last like 10 games and in that stretch we are still the second worst defense in the league. EPM, LEBRON, RAPTOR. But defensive metrics aren’t like super good though so take that with a grain of salt. They are top 10, and they have been top 10 all year. You would have a point if we weren’t trash defensively even when he came back, see our last 10 games. He doesn’t have that type of impact yet. And if I need to win a championship right now I’m taking Draymond.
how nauseating. Richard jefferson and his buddy really sucked him off for 2 hours straight on live television
Damian Lillard was 2nd Team All-NBA in 2016. That trumps the All-Star game. Come on, man. Kobe made it as starter via fan voting in his last year, but hadnt made any All-NBA team in 3yrs. Marc Gasol was 1st Team All-NBA the yr prior, and All-Star both ‘15 and ‘17. He didnt make it in ‘16, bc he was injured, so wasnt picked as a reserve, but he won enough games 31-21 (prior to injury) to allow Conley and Zach to limp them into the playoffs...
This thread is laughable. What Curry is doing with that garbage squad and keeping them in playoff contention is amazing. Not to mention the guy has won 3 rings already, he deserves the respect and admiration. Its Harden who has much to prove. Accomplished nothing noteworthy in terms of winning a title.
But 8th and 9th dont. You say that as if GSW is currently 8th seed. They are behind two all-star less teams, neither of which will have an All-NBA player, either. so, both DeRozan and Ja Morant are ahead of Curry. And Zion still might pass Curry, with 3 head to head games coming
Define “Carry your own team.” That’s the title of the tread. Many superstars could put up big numbers on that team.
Gotta give props, curry has been on a tear the past 7 games or so. I expect now with the wiseman injury in the fold. Curry will continue to go off. Wiseman believe it or not was actually an anchor to the warriors offense. Hate to see him injured tho
Yes, I know, and I absolutely agree, but Icehouse is being nitpicky about that so I thought I'd use his logic against him. For instance, even though McCollum was playing amazing this year before his injury (26.7 ppg, 5 apg, and 44% from the 3pt line (clearly would've been an all-star had he not gotten injured)), Icehouse is adamant that the Blazers only have one all-star this year. Disagree. The 2016 all-star game was 2/14/16. Gasol's first missed game was 2/10/16. Injury did not prevent Gasol from being named an all-star in 2016.
