All the Yao doubters please chime in.

Good point.

But....

Perspectively speaking, Hakeem was an excellent soccer/football/futbol GOALKEEPER. Football GK make their leaving timing, snatching, positioning and catching everthing in sight.



just my 2 cents

 

I'm disgusted by this thread. and yetti, steve is a volume shooter????? wtf??

 

One thing that bugged me about Yao last season was that he doesn't do enough to make sure he is the one to catch the pass. He lets his defenders go around him and through him. Like when MJ of SF passed it to Yao the defender would poke the ball away as it comes to yao for a turnover charged to MJ or SF. He needs to learn to use his body to protect the ball. THAT and use his damn height. So frustrating to see him bring the ball down low before he makes his moves only to be striped by guys like Steve Nash, or Fisher.

I am hoping he comes to camp next season with more mass, and a better menatality. Yao can't be passive anymore. We need him to be the dominator we selected at #1 in the draft.

 

WOW, what's the deal with this Yao bashing thread! The guy has just finish his 2nd year & I'm hearing alot of whiniing, moaning, & b1tchin about his play. We should be doin' this in his 4th year if hasn't improved much or slightly! His stats has climbed as well as his endurance, so I'm satisfied with his continued growth. Give him some time ! I think alot of us are just 2 impatient & we all want it now!! Remember, mostly every night the guy gets doubled, tripled, & sometimes quadrupled!! Also, he's been grabbed, held, shoved, elbowed hard in the kidney area ( ala Karla malone), wrestled, scratched, clawed, take down, etc... Imagine, NO zone defense! I long for the day they get rid of this gimmick play & get back to old school BBall!! This zone defense, imho is messin' up the game! I know yao is not a dirty player, but I wished he gave an elbow here or there once in awhile to keep the defender(s) honest !Another thing, I can't believe what I'm hearing that some of you want 2 leave cuz Steve or if Yao will leave the ROXS, talk about fair weather fans. I've been a ROXS fan since 1981 ( during choke & clutch times) ! I just can't see myself pulling for another team ! I think they need to keep Steve & just add pieces, a minor trade & FA pick up might be all that is needed! Man, this will be a fun off season everyone ! HAVE A HAPPY SUMMER FELLOW POSTERS & LURKERS!!!

 

I agree that he needs to get more aggressive. I wouldn't, however, equate aggressiveness with heart. Every player who comes to the NBA, whether from U.S. college, U.S. high school, Europe, or China, takes some time to get used to the physical play of the NBA. I've seen plenty to suggest that Yao needs to get more physical and aggressive. I just think it's a bit premature to say he has "no heart" and "doesn't want to be great."

I really think he gets whacked a lot, but isn't getting the calls yet. No matter how big and strong you are, if somebody hits your elbow while you're trying to catch a basketball, it will be harder to catch it cleanly.

Heart vs aggressiveness aside, I find the comparison to Smits to be a bit puzzling. I think it oversimplifies Yao's game. IMHO, Yao already has stronger post moves, better offensive variety, and better overall game instincts.

But even if you look strictly at numbers, Yao already tops Smits. Smits averaged 15.5 points and 6.2 rebounds in his second year. Yao averaged 17.5 points and 9 rebounds in his second year. Yao did have more turnovers, 2.5 to Smits' 1.7. Moreover, Smits' career best for rebounds in a single game, during his 12 year career, was 17. Yao's career best rebounds in one game during his TWO year career is 20. Smits has the edge on Yao with a career best of 44 points in one game to Yao's 41. But Smits got that 44 in his 8th year in the NBA. Yao got his 41 in his 2nd year in the NBA.

I would conclude with the following. Guess who has the following averages per game:

1st yr: 1.1 points, 1.7 rebounds (34 games played)
2nd yr: 3.1 points, 4.8 rebounds (67 games played)
3rd yr: 6.0 points, 8.3 rebounds (46 games played)
4th yr: 4.8 points, 8.2 rebounds (81 games played)
5th yr: 6.4 points, 13.2 rebounds (80 games played)
...

I don't think Yao can be compared to this player, but my point is this: Yao is fairly unique and has already delivered better numbers in his 2nd year than this player, and it's way too early to suggest that Yao has peaked. But the two teams who had this player in his first four years are saying "DOH!"

 

^^^ Good stuff. I'd be thrilled if Yao turned out to be 75% as dominating as either of those guys. And I agree that Yao's style is completely different from the first guy whom I mentioned -- my main point is that, for the vast majority of talented big men who come into the league very young and/or from overseas, it takes at least a few years for potential to develop into effectiveness. I'm not saying Yao is a sure thing, but my argument is that

(1) if one likens him to Smits or Bradley, that's equivalent to saying that Yao has already peaked since he has already matched or exceeded their career bests and averages

(2) I think it's too early to say Yao has already because of the developmental trajectories exemplified by the good players we both listed.

The last guy you mentioned is, interestingly, the only one at that tier of top superstars who finished out his senior year in college. I think that was not a meaningless factor in his ability to contribute right away as opposed to taking a few years to develop. That plus the fact that he's just a friggin' stud. In any event, I think you're spot on -- before Yao was drafted, people would've kissed donkeys if Yao EVER scored 20 points in a game, now they're expecting him to already perform like one of the greatest players ever to play the game.

 

If Yao can not get 20/10 next year, you will see lots of the treading proposals for Yao.

 

I'm in Stevie's corner on this one but let me make this clear:

There is no doubt that I think Yao can and probably will become the best center in the league once Shaq retires but that's not saying much for a league that at the present time is thinner at the center position than ever (Jamaal Magloire an All-Star at center?)

Second, I need a clearer definition of "Franchise Player." There are "Franchise Players" in the league who are losers. Nowadays, all you have to do is be able to sell tickets/fill the arena to be labeled a "Franchise Player".

Third, as a student of the game I've watched players from the Ruckers to the NBA, from the High School gyms to the parks in housing projects and there are things that the truly great players bring to the game from day one. That's heart and leadership. These are qualities that the great ones are born with. They may not be winners from the moment they step on the court but (if you're a student of the game) you can see it in them (Jordan, Magic, Hakeem, Bird, Isiah) from the moment they played their first game of team basketball. Call me crazy but I do not see this quality in Yao (I read a JVG quote on ESPN where Jeff said Yao has never once said "Give me the ball").

Last, as much as I do want Yao to succeed there are two words that throw up a red flag for me: Patrick Ewing.

 

You raise this point well. I'd definitely like to see more fire in the belly from Yao, though I'm more inclined than some to give him the benefit of the doubt for now because I think there may be a cultural factor in there. He comes from a world where it's considered rude to dunk, so naturally it'll take him some time to develop an "I'm the Man" attitude, especially when he's still one of the youngest guys on the team. I think he's just content to be deferential to the older guys right now. And it does seem that a lot of foreign players in general take a few years to get into that gimme the ball mentality. Peja and Dirk have it now, but neither did initially. What I'm hoping is that a few years down the line, Yao grows into that. But it's hard to say, because some times guys just don't have that personality and nothing you do can change that.

The "it" you speak of is an important thing. Did you intentionally exclude Shaq and Duncan? Shaq had his heart questioned a lot early on, so much that he had to make a commercial talking about how much he wanted a championship. Duncan was thought by some not to be selfish enough, but I think he was just paying some deference to Robinson until it became obvious that Duncan was a better offensive player. As for Jordan, Magic, Hakeem, Bird, and Isiah, I think even non students of the game could see "it" in them. Unfortunately, nobody else could ever get there hands on them because they were top picks in the 1st round that stayed with the teams that drafted them ('cept Hakeem, but Toronto was way past his prime).

Is there anyone who you think has "it" in today's NBA that a non student of the game might not have noticed? Today, the whole world seems to see "it" in LeBron and Carmelo. (Joe Dumars must have thought he saw more "it" in Darko than Carmelo, but I perhaps the jury's still out on that.) I think Kobe may have the most "it" in the game right now, but even people who don't follow basketball probably know that, too. My worry is that we'll never be able to add the "it" player because everyone, both students and non students, all have their sights on the same guys, so it's hard to trade for a player like that nowadays unless you're prepared to give up pretty much all the good players you currently have. Or unless you can luck out in the free agent sweepstakes. Unfortunately for Houston, we don't have the luxury of the Hollywood or Big Apple type cliche "cache", so free agents like Shaq don't always come walking into our lap begging to sign with us.

I don't figure I can call myself a student of the game -- but with that disclaimer, my own lay opinion is that championship teams in today's game really depend the discovery of a surprisingly exceptional support player (or players) that others overlooked, often in the late first round or second round of the draft. That way you get to keep them for some key years while they're cheap, and ideally they have some loyalty and want to stick around. Scottie Pippen was that player for the Bulls. Sam Cassell was that player for the Rockets. Derek Fisher was that player for the Lakers. Tony Parker and Manu were those players for the Spurs. Cuttino could turn out to be that player for the current Rockets, but of course it's all for naught if we don't get the title back in Houston. I also think if we can get a Ben Wallace, Jermaine O'Neal, or Tracy McGrady -- before everyone realizes how good they are -- the way Detroit, Indiana, and Orland did, we can keep our Wall and Franchise and eat cake, too.

I'm persuaded that if we add Kobe, McGrady, LeBron, or Carmelo to the current roster we'll have a contender for many years. But who are the next Wallaces, Jermaines, and McGradys currently sitting on someone else's bench waiting for us to pluck them out of relative obscurity? If you do know, pleeeeese tell Dawson right away, because I can't take much more of the pain that I've had to endure at the hands of all the jubilant Laker fans that have been tormenting me.

 

This is a very good point. That's partly why I'd hate to see Yao go. Even if Yao gets only marginally better than he is now, he'll be a major presence with Shaq gone, the thinness at center that you mention (the fearsome Ilgauskus was the other recent All-Star at the center position), and a pipeline that doesn't seem destined to produce a dominating true center for who knows how long.

It'll be particularly interesting in 7 years when the likes of Duncan, Garnett, and Wallace are in their mid-30's. Yao will be 30, hopefully still playing good ball and not too fatigued, and those guys should be showing signs of wear and tear. (Note that I say should -- all of those guys may well be effective well into their late 30's.) But Yao first has to learn to deal with the likes of Najera, who is way undersized against him yet always seems to give him fits.