There is plenty of evidence of the torture by Americans, whereas even people we have recovered from captivity have not reported any abuse whatsoever at the hands of Iraqis. I guess you are one of the ones that doesn't need any evidence, huh? Your selective perception is almost as bad as that of t_j.
I don't doubt that some of ours were. But where is your proof? It's also obvious that others weren't, via the video tapes and subsequent release of some of them. But again sinking to the level of doing dispicable and horrible things to POW's just makes both wrong, and neither of them justified.
Umm ... how about putting hoods over your kids' heads and piling them all up naked? That seems to have worked at Abu Ghraib ...
NJRocket -- Interrogation is one thing. Humiliation is quite another. Are you sincerely defending the military personnel in these pictures who are pointing...laughing...posing for pictures? Seriously? Even they're claiming that something was wrong...that they weren't trained properly. Even the administration has said this is inexcusable. You are the last person on the planet defending this. Congratulations.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far in this thread: Some are debating whether these torture tactics are a necessary evil in the War on Terror. By this reasoning, if the Iraqi prisoners might have information that would help us win that war, then it's sad but we'll have to extract that information by any means necessary. Except ... IRAQ WAS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE TERRORISTS! Or have we forgotten that so soon? Al Qaeda had nothing to do with Iraq. There were no WMD. No yellowcake uranium from Niger, no chemical weapons stashes in Iraq, no discernible involvement on Saddam's part at all. Now we invade these people's country and start treating them just as badly as Saddam did. For some reason, they don't seem to like us, and surprisingly (given the fact that we took over their country), they are actually violent about it. And they won't "talk" -- they won't provide evidence of their terrorist activities, which obviously had to exist, or else we wouldn't have invaded in the first place. Except ... It didn't exist. We're there on a sham pretense of neocon hubris. We're there because it helps GWB and company distract attention away from their very real failures back home in the U.S.A. And we're there because some in our country actually seem to get off on us bombing the hell out of the 4th poorest nation on earth (Afghanistan), torturing others in a country we helped to wreck with our embargoes (Iraq), and detaining still others without even the right to be accused of a crime (Guantanamo). So you tell me ... is this the America that inspires you, that makes you happy to be a U.S. citizen? Is this the America you learned about in your U.S. History classes? Is this an America to be proud of, that the rest of the world should emulate?
So what was your point again? Punish everyone in order to get the one guilty party? I'd hate to have you as a parent. Besides, what "crap" did these Iraqi detainees "pull"? Has that even been established yet?
If you defend the behavior and methods of these “soldiers” then you are also supporting the American deaths their actions will cause --- there is no argument with this fact.
how does it make it wrong? why should we play by the rules while they take advantage of our law abiding asses? what is truly laughable is that you lefties think that if by some chance Kerry gets into office, that this will all change.
Military newspaper blames Rumsfeld, Myers for "professional negligence" Mon May 10,10:52 AM ET WASHINGTON (AFP) - A leading military newspaper said that US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld set the tone for the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq by refusing to give captives rights due prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions. "This was a failure that ran straight to the top," said the editorial appearing in the May 17 edition of the Military Times weeklies. "Accountability here is essential -- even if that means relieving top leaders from duty in a time of war," it said. Owned by Gannett, the Military Times publishes the Army, Navy and Air Force times, weeklies that are widely read by servicemembers and distributed on US military bases around the world. The editorial said the soldiers caught in photographs and videos abusing prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison are referred to around the Pentagon as "the six morons who lost the war." "But the folks in the Pentagon are talking about the wrong morons," it said. Responsibility, it said, "extends all the way up the chain of command to the highest reaches of the military hierarchy and its civilian leadership." "The entire affair is a failure of leadership from start to finish," it said. "Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld set the tone early in this war by steadfastly refusing to give captives the rights accorded to prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention," it said. "From the moment they are captured, prisoners are hooded, shackled and accorded no rights whatsoever. The message to the troops: Anything goes." The editorial also faults General Richard Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, for trying to persuade CBS television to refrain from airing the images while failing to read the army's own damning internal report detailing the abuses. "On the battlefield, Myers' and Rumsfelds' errors would be called a lack of situational awareness -- a failure that amounts to professional negligence," it said. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm.../wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_rumsfeld_040510145238
Yes, the Left absolutely supports the ideals this country was founded on and which are enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution of the United States of America, and the Bill of Rights. You, tj, and bama, to name a few on here, do not support these ideals as is clearly evident from your apologies for, and support of torture. I've noticed that you've ignored my post above. Why won't you tell us what you believe in? What do you think makes the United States a great nation?
Several things: 1. Does the Geneva Convention apply when dealing with extranational irregulars who are not part of an organized army with ranks and such? This is an asymmetrical war, not one in which we are fighting another state. 2. I find it amusing that so many of our friends on the left are far more concerned with the welfare of a few Iraqi goons then when Americans were burned and dragged through the streets. These people were in that prison for a reason, folks. They didn't get caught by the local shamus boosting cars or selling meth on the sidewalk. 3. Even though I have no problem (the Machivellian in me) with us using techniques of humiliation and physical torture to get information, I am angry that some of these crackpot reservists were dumb enough to not only photograph it, but videotape it and act as if they were enjoying it! If you enjoy inflicting pain upon others, you are clearly a sadist and have no business being in a uniform. This is also why military discipline is so strict- to prevent this sort of thing from happening. They crossed the line when they appeared on camera to be actually enjoying what they did. That is something that I think bothers people more than what happened to the prisoners themselves. I know it actually bothers me. And one more last time, it's a war, folks. Until you have been shot at and had AK rounds whistle by your ears (I have), you really can say nothing about what led those troops to do what they did. Their only crime was recording permanent evidence that would act as a propaganda victory against our cause. I think that GWB and Rumsfeld's categorization of this episode of being "unAmerican" is just an attempt to pour some water on the fanning flames. They should have been better trained and their CO should have kept her finger on the pulse. Either she was an incompetent (possible) or asleep at the wheel. In either case, both she and those folks guilty of it are going to be tried and convicted. The question is will that be enough? I think that GWB can weather this storm. The American people and their 30-minute attention span will have forgotten this come November.
I'm not a 'leftie', and in this argument were're all Americans .... although some are clearly Un-American. And GV's comment was not a 'Spin'; it was the logical conclusion of your statement.
