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Collective Guilt

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Lil, May 5, 2004.

  1. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    Good question Lil.

    Short answer, No. Long answer, Yes.

    Even though we live in a democracy this is a representative democracy and as the 2000 election showed one that isn't all that direct so in many ways you are insulated from the decisions made at the highest levels of leadership. Also as the buildup to the invasion of Iraq shows our leadership won't always deal openly or without personal / ideological bias on issues but will seek to slant issues to advance a particular agenda. If the Administration had openly presented the information on Iraq and admitted that such things like uranium from Africa or WMD stockpiles were worst case speculation that trying to pass them off as fact initial Congressional and public support for invading Iraq might've been much different. To the extent that our elected leaders are not fair dealers when it comes to making policy that limits any collective guilt. As for corporations those are private entities and even though you may be a shareholder you can be absolved of guilt for the same reason that you can be absolved from the actions that the US government does. For living in Western Civilization since you weren't the one who was kicking the native Americans off your land you didn't have a direct responsibility to that.

    OTOH you still have a vote in this system and how you use it gives you some responsibility for what actions are taken by our leaders. For the presidency every four years we have a say in what actions the executive branch does and so if we vote to renew that Admin. we are not only taking responsibility for the actions of that Admin but also taking on some of the collective guilt of whatever actions that Admin has done. Voting in a new Admin. we are electing them based on what we believe they will act. If they act unlike what we expected then any guilt might be moderated that they weren't honest dealers. If they act in the direction we expected, and even extremely in that direction, then we do share in that responsibility because we gave them the mandate to do that. Luckily for us though we have a chance every four years to remedy any collective guilt we may have by voting out an Admin. we feel guilty about.

    For corporations that act in a bad way you do share some guilt if you are benefitting from those actions. If you are a share holder of a corporation that behaves unethically but gets huge profits and you get great dividends and high stock prices you are guilty of benefitting from those actions. You're even more guilty if you don't take action at the next shareholders' meeting to remedy the situation or disinvest yourself of that stock. Even if you don't own shares but benefit from getting low prices on goods and services provided by that corporation you have some level of guilt. In a capatilistic system you're not forced to spend your money with any one company and if you choose to buy goods from a corporation that is unethical then you are guilty of benefitting from that unethical behavior and are even rewarding that behavior by patronizing that business.

    Also as a member of this society you do benefit from the previous oppresion and outright robbery of native Americans, slaves, indentured servitude, segregation and all sorts of ills that afflict our history. The issue of collective guilt here is best encapsulated in the issue of reparations for slavery. There is no doubt that some of the wealth of this nation was built from slavery and that the current distribution of wealth is due in part to slavery and the legacy of segragation. So from an overall societal level a just argument can be made that the descendents of slaves deserve to be compensated for the immoral labor extracted from their ancestors. In other words there is collective guilt. OTOH getting the resources to pay those reparations is a different matter. Since reparations would be paid out of tax money that means that everyone now is paying for the crimes of those before. Even the descendants of slaves will be paying to reimburse the oppression of there own ancestors. At the same time those descendants have also since then benefitted from the wealth created by slavery. So it becomes a more difficult problem assigning guilt on the individual level because if reparations are paid that would mean that an African-American descendents of slaves today would also be paying reparations as a member of this society.

    Yes you do have some collective guilt to some extent but at the same time you are absolved of that guilt. Rather than worrying about it the best thing you can do is act in a way to minimize your guilt. Vote responsibly, buy responsibly, act civilly and justly and stay informed.
     
  2. Uncle_Tim

    Uncle_Tim Member

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    The Palestinians and their forefathers should have thought about that back in 1947 when Israel became a nation. They made a name for themselves and have proved it to be very true. If you go mouthing off to people every day, soon you'll be known as a jackass and people are going to treat you like crap, whether your intentions are good or bad. It's somewhat similar to the boy who cried wolf. As for the land issue....hey, if you don't want to lose your money, don't gamble. As most of us know, in 1967 Israel was surprise attacked on three fronts by three nations. They were driven repelled by an undermanned force and their land was taken from them and became part of Israel, although Israel gave most of it back. If you don't want to get burned, don't play with fire.
     
  3. FranchiseBlade

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    Actually the attack in 1967 wasn't an overpowering force, since Egypt barely sent in a whole division. The land was also not made part of Israel. If it was made part of Israel the Palestinians there would have more rights. Instead the Israelis occupied the land and began building settlements on it. All of this breaks the 4th geneva convention. Israel is extended beyond it's borders, and they didn't make part of that land as Israel, nor would they. They don't want there to be more Arab Israelis than Jewish Israelis.

    Israel is an occupying army.
     
  4. Mulder

    Mulder Member

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    Sounds like someone I know...
     
  5. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    Franchise Blade --

    The book is called "Blood Brothers" by Eli Chacour. I don't have a copy, and I can't seem to find it on Amazon. I borrowed it from a friend at church. If you can't find it let me know..I'll see if it can be located. It ought to be required reading. It doesn't talk about Israeli agression after 1967..it talks about Israeli aggression upfront...like right after the state's creation when they just started moving people away...and burning their homes and farms.
     
  6. ROXRAN

    ROXRAN Member

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    I think the world is not enough and never will be, but a conscience of a collective can do more in the long run than an impactive energy...
     
  7. insane man

    insane man Member

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    i love you guys.

    and i definitely agree we have collective guilt. but its not just in foreign policy either. i live in houston and regularly you see people living under highway over passes. for the most industrialized most developed most powerful most affluent 'greatest nation in the world' this should NOT be the case. yet it happens. and really how much have we done to change it? im sure jacking up taxes on corporation a percentage or two would solve most of the homelessness in this country.
     
  8. FranchiseBlade

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    Thanks Max, If it's not on Amazon, it might be out of print. I check the used bookstores I know of, and I'll check the library.

    If I was back in NY I could go to the Strand! This is one of the few times I've missed NY.
     

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