[QUOTE fa 7999] SF3 dominated by TP in the GM poll. ______________________ A poll with a total of 31 votes is pretty weak justification for a "dominated" reference. I would venture to guess that most of the 22 for TP votes are the "I hate SF club" founding members and a few SA fans.
[QUOTE by solid] Good point. Apparently the Spurs didn't even see the potential in Parker, and if you infering that there are more problems on the Rockets than Francis, you are correct. Yes, I think that Francis is more of a problem than a solution. I believe his contribution can be more easily replaced than generally believed, and that the subtraction of his mistakes will make a significant difference. ________________ I agree with your point that he can be replaced, and I am not opposed to trading SF for value in return, but I do not think that TP would be value in return. He could make sense on this team if there were other peices (i.e., Ginobli).
Interesting. So you think that only Spurs fans and specifically SOHaters will vote on a general NBA board. The SOHaters should also include Barkley, Kenny Smith, to name a few.
In response to the specific question in the general NBA thread, no I never said "only", I said presumabley, probably or something to that effect. I would assume that since you knew exactly where to go to get the thread, you are one of the 22, which if I am correct would only lend credibility to my statement. As for the Barkley, Kenny Smith reference, I would also presume that they are not posting on message boards in the ordinary course of business, so they are irrelevant to this discussion. I am sure that if I spent some time combing the various media outlets, I could find a number of notable NBA analysist that praise SF, assuming that Barkley and KS are acutally Haters. I think that you can be critical without being a hater (which are probably what CB and KS are syaing, although I have not actually heard any of their comments), but when someone makes statements that TP is better than SF, it can only be attributed to clouded judgement caused by bias (hatred) or just plain ignorance. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are in the former category instead of the later.
How many rings do they have. .. . . between the two of them . .. HEY throw in J kidd too . . . . No Tim Duncan . . . No Rings for Parker or any other Spur POINT BLANK AND SIMPLE When Yao reaches TD's level . . . . with SF on the team . . .call and make and apples to apples comparison ALSO It pains me to say this. . . but POPovich maybe the best coach in the league Spurs are more talent than the rockets but not by much I thought Pop was a coat rider [firing del after a bad season with Robinson out for most of it and then getting TD in the draft] but I can say he makes some good personel moves and seems to caoch well. Rocket River JVG < PHIL < POPOVICH
Honestly though Have Barkley or Kenny said ANYTHING good about the Rockets since they left? Barkley even had to kiss some *ss because he was bashing Yao so IMO KS and CB = BS Rocket River FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY - Mark VAndemere
Do you even understand the way that SF acquires his assist? Do you even understand the way that TP acquires his assist? What about how a PG acquires turnovers? Do you see this on the court? Can you tell the difference in tendencies? Have you seen SF's compared to TP? Do you even know how 2.8 and 3.7 TOPG is a huge factor on the court during a 48 minute game? What about the differential of TO over a year? No? Read on... Francis is a SG in a PG body. But can't do either well. It's not about "pass first, shoot second." It's about competence in whatever you do. Regardless of the position. For that, you actually have to watch the game and see what they do. See, how the statistics play-out on the court. You just don't put a few statistics side by side and say...."Oh looky, 2.4 TO is only a little less than 3.7" without first knowing how those numbers really affect the team on the court. Plus, in regards to TO differential, those numbers are deceiving because Francis's differential over the season is very erratic. He can get a 3 TO game one night, and then get a 5 and 6 TO game the next two. And then maybe a few 7 TO games, and come back and get a couple 3 TO games and it all averages out to 3.7 (just look at his game log for examples of this pattern). He's erratic and the amount of differential in his TO ratio is wide. Compare that to a competent PG (Parker) in which their TOPG really stays close to their average. Parker hovers around 2.3 MOST of the time. By the way, have you noticed how TPs assist have increased per year AND his TO remain hovering around 2.3? I expect his PPG to rise as well. That's called IMPROVEMENT. We're still waiting for Francis to do the same. In the playoffs, Parker has ONE TURNOVER in each of his two games w/the Lakers, plus 20/5 and 30/9 respectively in points/assist. All this from a 3rd year player at 21 years old. Francis is 27 going on his 6th year and still makes rookie mistakes. You "highlighted" *all* statistics. But you don't even understand how to read them and how relevant they are on the court. Blocks? Give me a break! And the assist difference of 0.7?! Do you really want us to believe that a 0.7 difference in assist matter (side by side) when you fail to include TO per game in that comparison. I mean, lets say that some PG had 7 assist per game. On the surface that looks good. But if they also have 4.5 TOPG, you better show that as well. Because that's a large factor in the way that PG runs the team. I mean, if you were going to compare assist w/out looking at the TO, you could at least given me a PG that had 8 or 9 assist per game. That would be be a lot more substantial than a 0.7 difference. The second comment.... "SF's advantage in net offensive possessions" How do net offense possessions equate "better" when TP hits a higher percentage of his shots per 48 minutes AND turns the ball over less in that same 48 minutes? So, Francis might cross-over his defender, but he fouls-up (air balls and turnovers) his shot more often than TP does. Plus, he misses the assist opportunities by turning over the ball over time and time again. It's not about this year. It's about ALL of SF years. Even when SF was getting 20/6/6. He still was incompetent. He still made bone-head plays irrelevant of his "supporting cast." It wont matter what his supporting cast is. He creates his OWN turnovers. A lot of them are UNFORCED! Off his foot, dribble into traffic and and screwup fast-break opportunities. Sorry. That's wrong. Mobley and Yao would suddenly benefit from Parker's accurate passing. Plus, his shot selection would be better. And TO way down for all players. How many times does SF beat his defender and then miss the lay-up? How many times does SF drive into the lane and cause a TO? How many times does Francis drive into a forced double team and fail to see the cutting player? This goes on and on. And the Spurs team would suffer from it on the team scale. They would gain from his athletic ability and rebounds. But suffer because the main job of a PG (which is running the offense) would be neglected. All you seem to see is his "mad skills crossover" but forget about when he's missing the shot or turns the ball over. Just don't look at individual stats side by side. Analyze how they influence each other, how they playout on the court and how the total packages works. Look at it form all perspectives. The Rockets would be better w/TP. Not only does TP know how to cross his defender over. Parker also knows how to use a proper pick and roll. He also hits those shots off of better selection and setup. And while scoring, TP never forgets his responsibility to pass. So, don't think that just because Francis can jumper higher and is more athletic that some how that would equate to "better" on a team scale.
i'm pretty sure everyone in the spurs' organization (players, coaches, janitors) knows this and they don't have any issues admitting it. just like how everyone in our organziation knew that without hakeem, those 2 rings wouldn't even have existed.
Too many people have very short memories... Way too many. Parker is on fire right now - he did not play THAT spectacularly during the season. Not at all. Neither did Francis, but he played better than Parker. At least according to the stat sheet... He beat out Parker in quite literally almost ever-single-statistical-category. Also, I'm going to tell you again: please don't forget all the stellar years Steve had before this one. The years where it was damned near impossible to find people who wanted to trade Steve like they do now. The years where Francis led us to 2.5 winning seasons (he got injured in one after a very fast start). Basically ever year in Steve's career BEFORE this one, which he still finished off pretty strong.
"Terrible post DavidS. REALLY terrible." You are the definition of a knee-jerk-reaction, David, and you have a VERY stereotypical view of Steve also. If his jumper was falling this season like it has in seasons past, this thread wouldn't even be here, and you wouldn't be saying what you're saying now, David. We'd all still love Steve...
DavidS, Your post pretty much nailed everything with the exception that a serviceable lead guard on an elite team should at least know how to run a simple 2-1 or 3-1 fast break. It's laughable that a player be recognized as an elite PG but consistently fails to run fast breaks and has poor court vision and consistently dribbles into double and triple teams. He might be a great SG but not a lead guard.
Originally posted by DavidS Do you even understand the way that SF acquires his assist? Do you even understand the way that TP acquires his assist? What about how a PG acquires turnovers? Do you see this on the court? Can you tell the difference in tendencies? Have you seen SF's compared to TP? Do you even know how 2.8 and 3.7 TOPG is a huge factor on the court during a 48 minute game? What about the differential of TO over a year? No? Read on... ______________________ Lets see, an assist is where a person, passes to another person, and that person scores without having to create his own shot, essentially feeding off the other persons ability to create. I guess SF, like TP passes to another person, who is presumably wide open, and that person makes the shot???? When SF drives through the lane, and commands a double team, he distributes to an open player who takes the shot. Unfortunately for SF, his players make a lower percentage of those opportunities than TP’s, presumably due to TD and cast. As for the 2.8 vs. 3.7, that is not per 48, and yes I understand that it has an impact on the flow of the game, as do rebounds, blocks, steals (which is essentially a TO in reverse depending on the circumstances), all of which SF has over TP. You cannot micro analyze a particular statistic and extrapolate that over the entire population, in this case the skill set of SF and TP. Well, what about the differential in rebounds, blocks, and steals over a year????? Originally posted by DavidS You just don't put a few statistics side by side and say...."Oh looky, 2.4 TO is only a little less than 3.7" without first knowing how those numbers really affect the team on the court. Plus, in regards to TO differential, those numbers are deceiving because Francis's differential over the season is very erratic. He can get a 3 TO game one night, and then get a 5 and 6 TO game the next two. And then maybe a few 7 TO games, and come back and get a couple 3 TO games and it all averages out to 3.7 (just look at his game log for examples of this pattern). He's erratic and the amount of differential in his TO ratio is wide. Compare that to a competent PG (Parker) in which their TOPG really stays close to their average. Parker hovers around 2.3 MOST of the time. ____________________ First of all, in you erratic analysis here, your numbers don’t play out. If you have multiple 5,6,7 TO games, then to average 3.7 you must be having some 0,1,2 TO games to counteract the effects of the aforementioned poorer performances. I have not tried to breakdown TP’s game-by-game numbers, but I would presume that he, like SF has plenty of erratic performances, just to a lesser extent. BTW, aren’t you taking one statistical category and saying “oh looky” TP is better than SF???? I quoted all statistics in a fairly objective manner. You are the one isolating TO’s. Originally posted by DavidS In the playoffs, Parker has ONE TURNOVER in each of his two games w/the Lakers, plus 20/5 and 30/9 respectively in points/assist. All this from a 3rd year player at 21 years old. Francis is 27 going on his 6th year and still makes rookie mistakes. ________________________ Let’s see, SF also had two games with 1 or no TO, a triple double, 11 or 12 assists, not to mention 18 and 27 points, and 8-12 rebounds. Big freaking whoop. Let’s isolate two games to prove your point. Originally posted by DavidS You "highlighted" *all* statistics. But you don't even understand how to read them and how relevant they are on the court. Blocks? Give me a break! And the assist difference of 0.7?! Do you really want us to believe that a 0.7 difference in assist matter (side by side) when you fail to include TO per game in that comparison. I mean, lets say that some PG had 7 assist per game. On the surface that looks good. But if they also have 4.5 TOPG, you better show that as well. Because that's a large factor in the way that PG runs the team. I mean, if you were going to compare assist w/out looking at the TO, you could at least given me a PG that had 8 or 9 assist per game. That would be be a lot more substantial than a 0.7 difference. ___________________________________ It appears that you don’t even understand how to read statistics or how relevant they are on the court. Statistics should be taken as a whole, not on an adhoc basis. Yes SF is careless with the ball at times, but the other statistical items off-set in the grand scheme of things. I guess blocks, steals and rebounds are not taking away a scoring opportunity for the other team??? Maybe he should just let them go, and you could condemn him for that to. Additionally, I believe that you can partially attribute TP’s higher shooting percentage to the fact that TD commands more double teams than Yao, and that SF commands more double teams than TP. Although I guess to you that is irrelevant. Originally posted by DavidS It's not about this year. It's about ALL of SF years. Even when SF was getting 20/6/6. He still was incompetent. He still made bone-head plays irrelevant of his "supporting cast." It wont matter what his supporting cast is. He creates his OWN turnovers. A lot of them are UNFORCED! Off his foot, dribble into traffic and and screwup fast-break opportunities. ________________________ I guess by your account, SF dribbles off his foot 3.6 times per game. TO’s are a problem for SF, I do not disagree, but he does so much more than that. I thought the whole point of a turnover was that it was creating your own. While SF dribbles off his foot, TP throws it into the 3rd row, which I would presume is unforced??? Whats the difference, a TO is a TO, and SF is statistically worse in that category than TP. Incompetent he is not. Originally posted by DavidS Sorry. That's wrong. Mobley and Yao would suddenly benefit from Parker's accurate passing. Plus, his shot selection would be better. And TO way down for all players. How many times does SF beat his defender and then miss the lay-up? How many times does SF drive into the lane and cause a TO? How many times does Francis drive into a forced double team and fail to see the cutting player? This goes on and on. And the Spurs team would suffer from it on the team scale. They would gain from his athletic ability and rebounds. But suffer because the main job of a PG (which is running the offense) would be neglected. All you seem to see is his "mad skills crossover" but forget about when he's missing the shot or turns the ball over. Just don't look at individual stats side by side. Analyze how they influence each other, how they playout on the court and how the total packages works. Look at it form all perspectives. ___________________________ They still have to make the shots, and it wouldn’t happen, in fact, you can make the case that his APG would decrease. And please, the TO’s for other players way down, that’s ludicrous. How many times has SF beat his defender and made the shot? How may times has he driven down the lane and another player’s man collapsed and been on the receiving end of an easy basket or a kick-out for a wide open three that is missed? How many times has the entire rockets team quit on him and he is the only one out there still giving 100%. This goes on and on and on and on and on…. The Spurs and SF would have rings, rings, and more rings, and we would be crying about this for years.
God bless SF3. Let him and Spurs collect the next round of lord of the RINGS and we will build around Yao and Parker.
You couldn't give Francis and his bloated contract to the Spurs let alone for Parker. Spurs like intellignet players. Francis will be gone by next fall, that's how much the Rockets think of him and wheelmi will likely be stunned how little the Rockets get in return for him.
QUOTE by striker You couldn't give Francis and his bloated contract to the Spurs let alone for Parker. Spurs like intellignet players. Francis will be gone by next fall, that's how much the Rockets think of him and wheelmi will likely be stunned how little the Rockets get in return for him. _____________ I won't be stunned by anything the rockets brass does considering the MoT & Cato contracts, not drafting RLewis, trading for Rice, trading KT for JP, and then letting him walk. I believe that if they get nothing in return it will not be due to SF's bloated contract or his deficiencies, but our leaderships propensity to do stupid things. SA would take SF in a heartbeat, and would probably give us TP and another palyer to do it. Again, back away from the crack pipe!
Just goes to show what a REAL General Manager can do - especially one that knows how to find NBA talent. Why, just think how different it would be around here if the Rockets had one of these also!
