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Biden Covid Relief package (3rd Covid Bill $1.9T)

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Amiga, Jan 14, 2021.

  1. subtomic

    subtomic Contributing Member
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    Not trying to be an *******, but you are not a moderate. Calling what Sanders and the rest are trying to do “class warfare” is not a moderate position - it’s very conservative.

    Asking for fair wages and corporate accountability shouldn’t even be political, but it became that way due to 50+ years of labeling anything other than trickle down economics as socialism/communism.

    What frightens me more than anything is not the hardcore Trumpers - we know who they are and how big their numbers are - but the so-called moderates who will excuse anti-democratic and outright authoritarian power grabs just because they can’t let go of the thoroughly disproven conservative economic philosophies that have dominated political debate for my entire lifetime (b. 1975).

    I’m sure your views are more nuanced but your statement was not.
     
  2. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

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    When you start a statement by saying you're not trying to be an *******, you are being an *******. I'm a moderate since I am willing to vote both ways. I know I'm a moderate because all the liberals I know think I'm conservative and all the conservatives think I'm a libtard which means I'm right where I need to be.

    Your response and the tone of your response is what pushes people in the middle to the right. It's the reason why even with the shittiest president imaginable, the democrats still managed to lose seats in the house.

    This is coming from a person who wanted the democrats to take control and has never voted for a Republican president. I did vote for Perot though.
     
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  3. subtomic

    subtomic Contributing Member
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    Trump voters voted for Trump not because they were forced to by “liberal rudeness,” but because they were sympathetic to his viewpoints of white grievance. Stop blaming liberals for the poor decision-making of Trump voters.

    And bluntly, you used my opening sentence to avoid addressing my main point. I don’t really care what the people around you say - your statement that Bernie and co are attempting class warfare is a deeply conservative position. So climb off the cross and own what you said.
     
  4. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

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    I wasn't talking about the votes for Trump. I'm talking about the down ballot votes that went republican despite a shithead president and the Republicans that enabled him.

    Like I said, since I'm pissing off a liberal like you, I know I'm in the right spot politically. I just put you on my ignore list so don't bother responding. I won't see it.
     
  5. subtomic

    subtomic Contributing Member
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    honest question to everyone else who isn’t blocking me - did I really seem that pissed off here? I was strongly challenging his statement but at no point do I feel I was attacking him personally or even acting angry.
     
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  6. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    That's a very bad way to determine if you are moderate.

    I don't think I'm moderate and I also get attacked by democrat leaning and conservative leaning posters here.

    You need some self awareness. What Bernie proposes isn't moderate. I acknowledge that. But it isn't ****ing class warfare. Class warfare is literally what has happened to this economy for the past 40 years where massive corporations and their media outlets bragged about gdp growth as some magic number that determines the health of our society when the average American has seen signficant increases in the cost of living while wages stagnate relative to inflation.

    Also you need to expand your bubble outside of just the American paradigm if right vs left. Bernie's economic views would be considered a hair left of center in most other developed nations. American propaganda in the Cold War has really skewed American perception on things like socialism.
     
    #266 fchowd0311, Feb 27, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
    subtomic likes this.
  7. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Enlightened centrists can be snowflaky sometimes.

    That guy definitely isn't a moderate. If he is then it's a new form if moderate called "toxic moderate".
     
  8. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    This is precisely the nature of Trumpism. "I'm doing something right if I piss off the libtards".
     
  9. dmoneybangbang

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    Class warfare was a pretty conservative thing to say. I’m center left and you are center right.

    You keep dodging the issue and making it about something else.
     
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  10. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I'm not quite sure I follow you. Are you saying that the economic stuff is things like wanting low taxes and limited government or are you saying that many Trump voters have no interest in the economic message of countering globalization and corporatization?

    I agree there is a lot of grievance among the Trump supporters and Trump nurtured and encouraged that. Keep in mind that there were many counties that went for Trump twice in the last two elections but also went to Obama in the prior two. Iowa is a good example as that's a largely rural and white state yet Obama won it in 2008 and 2012 while Trump won it in 2016 and 2020. That shows that it is possible for a Democrat to capture some Trump voters.

    My own experience with Trump voters is that while they rail about things like "socialism" they actually aren't true fiscal conservatives. As such cultural messages carry a lot of resonance with them. A Democrat who agrees with them on those issues could be successful. The bigger challenge I see though is whether such a Democrat could be accepted by much of the Democratic party.
     
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  11. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

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    When AOC ends every statement she makes with"tax the rich" without any context, it's class warfare rhetoric. Like rich people are to blame for everything wrong in the world.

     
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  12. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    he's right you know.jpg
     
  13. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    The context is this:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americ...s-pay-a-lower-tax-rate-than-the-middle-class/

    [​IMG]

    Yes her desire to tax the rich more isn't extremist. Your desire to continue this trend I'm showing you is though.
     
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  14. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    See @rockbox

    You aren't a moderate if this extremist Libertarian agrees with you.

    Just call yourself a Libertarian and I'll acknowledge you have self-awareness.
     
  15. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    lol you can't even get along with jiggyfly . . . "walking grievance." best phrase ever.
     
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  16. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Is getting along with him some baramoter of moderation?

    Is there a Federalist article on this?
     
    #276 fchowd0311, Feb 27, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  17. subtomic

    subtomic Contributing Member
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    I think we’re saying the same thing in terms of what Trump voters believe.

    Here’s where we disagree - the social issues that Trump voters have embraced are not ones the Democrats could credibly adopt (even if they wanted to). No Democrat wants to adopt ethnic nationalism or anti-democratic authoritarianism. Even assuming the worst of a Democrat politician - that he/she is a amoral sociopath who adopts whatever positions in order to secure election - that person isn’t going to adopt those views and run as a Democrat because it’s a surefire strategy for electoral defeat.

    A fair number of Democrats have previously shown support for some form of economic protectionism and low taxes. In fact, just about every Democrat tax proposal advocated lower taxes for anyone below an upper middle class tax bracket, and most would support requiring businesses to source materials from businesses that adhere to US safety and environmental standards (which is a sort of side door version of protectionism).

    I think Obama’s election in a place like Iowa was a mix of conservative voters staying home due to the failure of the Bush Administration and a few otherwise conservative voters getting caught up in the history of the moment. The emergence of the Tea Party (and later Trump) and the increasingly harsh conservative rhetoric coming from social media has pretty much ended that era - those voters now have latched on to Trumpism and as far as they’re concerned, the Democrats are their mortal enemy. I don’t see how any slightly more conservative platform can overcome that until these people turn away from Trumpism.

    in my opinion, the Democrats’ only chance in a few red states is to increase voter turnout, with the emphasis being nonvoting Hispanic and African American populations.
     
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  18. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    fchowd0311 likes this.
  19. dmoneybangbang

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    I don't agree with all the Bernie/AOC wing's rhetoric, but it's pretty clear that trickle down economics has created great wealth at the expense of hollowing out the middle class and even US strength.

    Class warfare is always going on, pretty much the story of mankind...... You're center right, I'm center left.
     
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  20. dmoneybangbang

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    The line between nationalism and a form of economic protectionism is a thin one that was better exploited by Trump/Bannon style populism than by Bernie style populism. Dems consistently lose the messaging battle and need to talk about programs as 'investments for Americans", "investment for the working class", "investments for rural America", etc.
     

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