Yea but would Durant remain as efficient with the same volume? And the answer is likely yes but how efficient he would be in comparison to Harden....remains to be seen actually. Harden being able to have a large scoring volume while remaining efficient is not an argument agaisnt him imo.
Harden is efficient yes but Kevin Durant is just more efficient. You have to remember that KD played on teams with Westbrook, Curry, and Klay. On a few of those squads he didn't even take most of the shots on the team. Also KD's OFFRTG has been better than Harden's for several seasons as well. No point of debating it just look at the stats yourself. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/a...r=-1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular Season https://www.nba.com/stats/players/a...r=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season https://www.nba.com/stats/players/a...r=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season https://www.nba.com/stats/players/a...r=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular Season Stats for field goals attempted https://www.nba.com/stats/players/t...-19&SeasonType=Regular Season&sort=FGA&dir=-1 https://www.nba.com/stats/players/t...-17&SeasonType=Regular Season&sort=FGA&dir=-1 https://www.nba.com/stats/players/t...-15&SeasonType=Regular Season&sort=FGA&dir=-1
I know. Those guys that he played with, helped his efficiency. They didnt hurt his efficiency. He also played with Westbrook when he was still an all NBA player. He's played with other offensive forces his whole career. Offensive rating is also a stat that is very much lineup dependent and shouldnt be used as a metric to compare players with. Its more for team offenses. Im not saying Durant isnt the more versatile scorer or the better scorer. But it is very close and I havent seen much evidence that Durant can handle a scoring load as big as Harden's without keeping his efficiency. Here is an example of how Curry(and now it will be Harden) helped Durant. Its why I say Curry was the best player on those Warriors teams.
Almost every advanced statistic is lineup/team dependant, that's why I don't hang my hat on them (VORP, Raptor, APM, BPM, WARP, player efficiency rating). I'll consider them but I'm not going to base all my efforts on focusing on advanced statistics. I don't wanna get into another slippery slope debate with you over who Durant played with vs who Harden played with. The stats are simply the stats, we are just simply assessing who is the more efficient scorer. The stats say Durant is the more efficient scorer so there that's. Now the video that you pinned was mainly about how Curry helps Durant in the PLAYOFFS, and I've listened to that guy before. His full of $hit on a lot of his takes. Personally I don't like listening to "analytical" YouTube guys because they come a dime a dozen and most are bullshit to me. But if you wanna listen to those guys be my guest, I'll stick to watching the games and looking at the stats.
You can make an argument that Curry was the best offensive player on the team. That’s somewhat debatable. Durant was more consistent in his production in the playoffs. On the defensive side, it’s no contest.
Its not that debatable tbh. Curry's gravity is what allowed Durant to be a consistent performer. On the defensive side the gap isnt so huge that it overrides the bigger gap between Curry and Durant on offense. They both needed each other to win no doubt, I just think that Curry was the clear engine of GS.
Those advanced stats you listed are not lineup dependent. The looks that Durant got in the playoffs also occurred in the regular season as well. I've given you the stats and the context my guy.
Durant didn’t need Curry to be a consistent performer. Look at what he did without Curry on the floor with him in the playoffs. Durant isn’t a player that needs open space to score.
You mean agains the Old decrepit 8th seed Spurs? And yes he did. Durant never was as efficient as he was with GS nor has he gone as far in the playoffs. Curry's gravity allowed Durant plenty of room to operate.
Durant was a supremely efficient scorer in OKC. And nothing you’re saying is strong evidence that Curry was inarguably their best offensive player in the playoffs. It was a 1A, 1B situation. Of course it’s debatable.
The argument isnt that Durant wasnt efficient, but he became much more efficient at GS and a lot of that was attributed to Curry.
You really underrate KD. Curry’s gravity didn’t make him a consistent performer- his greatness made him a consistent performer. He was MVP before him and it looks like he’s going to be MVP after him. great players help each other out. Curry didn’t “make” KD anything. And their defense is miles and miles apart.
I do not, he's great. But the fact is, he's never been "as great" as when he played with Curry. Curry won a championship without KD(should have been 2 actually. He's not going to be MVP with the record they have and who hes playing with. Dude isnt even the best player on his own team.
I’ve only watched Nets sparingly since the trade but he absolutely is deferring. He only scored 20 or so the other night and Kyrie had 30+ and so did KD. He also played less minutes than both of them. Not sure the context of those minutes (foul trouble, eg). I picked Kyrie only because I think Kyrie will try and take more shots. Harden as much as he loves to shoot, is totally okay with deferring for long periods, IF they’re winning.
Correct me if I’m misremembering, but Durant was regarded by most people as the second best player in the game in OKC.
Its true. And then 2014-2019 happend and everything kind of got turned on its head. Durant and Curry both obviously needed each other to win more titles. But if you look at it, I mean...I think the numbers show and the film show that Curry's impact was higher than Durant's. Durant is probably better than Curry now(maybe) but I think Durant's efficient scoring tends to get overrated.
As great as you think he is you are still underrating him is what I’m trying to tell you. He’s going to go down as the 2nd best wing of all time behind LBJ and a top10-15 player of all time. Steve Kerr has them both at Golden State and at no time did he think Steph was the better basketball player. The warrior fans were mad bc KD took away some shine from Steph. Steph is bad defensively. KD is above average defensively. Their offense is different but both incredible and all time best of the best ****- so it’s not worth really arguing. It’s just like saying do I like the sunrise or the sunset better.
Im not, if anything people are overrating volume scorers even if they are efficient. And he's not better than Bird as of yet. Steve Kerr is wrong. The numbers show Steph's impact. The film shows his impact. The Warriors needed Curry a lot more than KD(they still needed him a lot for sure dont get me wrong). KD is okay defensively, I dont know where the notion is that he's above average defensively but he's not "that" good. Steph is also a PG, defense matters less for him. Curry's offense is better than Durant's. Its why guys like Harden, Steph and Luka(not yet but soon) have high impacts on their "team" offense. Durant is great but his impact on a team's offense is overstated, he's simply not an elite play maker and that matters a lot.
This post is mostly correct. Durant was one of the most efficient and elite scorer in the history of the NBA prior to and after joining the Warriors. He had 4 consecutive seasons with a TS over 63% in OKC prior to joining the Warriors in 2016-17. He also averaged over 28 ppg during this span (except for the 27 game due to his foot injury season). the three seasons prior, his TS was 61%, 59% and 60%. PPG? 30, 27, 28. Durants TS% did improved slightly during the 3 regular season he with the Warriors (65, 64, 63). In short Durant was a BEAST. However, there is one important change to note about Durant's numbers after joining the Warriors. Durant's playoff efficiency the three years (2013-2016) before GS. 54% 57% 57%. PER 20, 22, 26. His three season with GS his TS was 68% 60% 66% PER 26, 25, 27. To his credit Durant did perform exceptionally in 2011-12 TS 63% PER 27.5. The argument for Curry being the best player on the Warriors during those years rests mostly on his impact stats during the regular season. Which shouldn't be that shocking since; One, Curry is an all-time great with unprecedented gravity, off ball impact. Two, the GS team was optimized/built around Curry so it would make sense it would fit Curry more than Durant. IMO Curry was the most important player on those Warriors team, but in the playoffs, Durant was the better player. Ultimately the differences between the was two small enough that I could see arguments for either. On the topic of Nets leading scorer, I had no doubts picking KD because he is IMO clearly the best scorer on the team. One very important thing people miss when evaluating Durant's ability to score (especially in comparison to others) is how seamlessly Durant does it within an offense. Compare peak Durant's scoring season vs Harden's. PPG Harden : 36.1 Durant : 32.0 TS% / eFG% Harden : .616 / .541 Durant : .635 / .560 On the surface those numbers look fairly similar... Harden with higher output and Durant with better efficiency. Now look at the time each player is controlling the ball. Harden had the ball 9.3 minutes per game in 18-19 . That's an enormous amount of time controlling the offense (2nd highest since 2013). Nearly every time a player has avg 9 minutes or so of ball control has resulted in enormous statistical output (triple doubles, close to 30 points 10 assist or 30++ points scoring). Durant in 2013-14 when he scored 32 per game needed just 3.9 minutes of ball time. The reason for this wasn't because Westbrook who avg 6.9 assist was spoon feeding him at the rim or wide open jumpers. Its because Durant can score quickly, effectively and devastatingly so through, over and around defenses. He can post, drive, shoot and do all three without dominating every possession. He doesn't need to dribble, dribble, dribble to set up his moves or run multiple pick and rolls to get the right mismatch. These methods are fine and effective skills, but they also require a lot of time and monopolize the offense. Put Durant on any team and he can score in the high 20's low 30's without taking the ball away from the star(s) on those teams. His scoring abilities wouldn't detract or clash with other stars. Instead he'll score seamlessly alongside Curry, Thompson, Harden, Westbrook, Irving, Embid, Lebron or any other player.
That doesnt mean Westbrook's gravity didnt help him. I dont know why this is being understated. Without Westbrook they never made it out of the second round. Also...Curry did help Durant get those playoff numbers, absolutely he did. And why....because the defenses cared more about Curry than they did about Durant. I dont know how many times I have to post that Ben Taylor Video but I will. Like his versatility is nice and all but "scalability" imo is an overrated thing. Dominating a possession didnt hurt the stars that played with Harden. Chris Paul was still Chris Paul with Harden, same with Westbrook. They werent worse players playing with him, they just declined.
