Most of those losses were to decent teams. The Rockets lost 3 games to the Clips, 3 to the Nuggets, 1 to the Nets, and 1 to the Celts. They lost those because they didn't bring the right kind of effort. The Rockets are more talented than the Jazz, Suns, Wolves, and Kings. If they had brought the right attitude to every game, they would have been among the elite. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Save Our Game Action Forum!
Uhh... what? Let's forget Houston's amazing lack of anything resembling a decent bench, and just compare Houston's best 3 players to those teams best 3 players. So, how do Francis, Mobley, and Taylor (hakeem was hurt too much) rank against these guys? Stocton, Malone, Marshall: sorry, Jazz ge the edge. Stockton was efficient, Malone was excellent, and Marshall was one of the all-round best players in the league. Suns: Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, Cliff Robinson - here's your best case - but Jason Kidd was more consistent than Francis, Marion aws more valuable than Mobley (rebounds and defense!), and Robinson was a better 3rd option than Taylor Wolves: Garnett, Brandon, Wally - another borderline case, but Garnett is so multi-talented that he blows away Francis, Brandon and Mobley wash, as do Wally and Taylor. Sacramento: Webber, Christie, Stojakovic Webber's better than Francis, Mobley has a minor edge over Christie (imo), but Stojakovic was significantly better than Taylor. And all of these teams had more depth. ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
Several points: The issue regarding comparing us to Philly is a red herring. Forget Philly. The issue is whether we have the personnel to win 55 games. I say some of our personnel are not hard enough, and do not play hard every game, so we lose some games we should win. I think Rudy and the key players would say we had our chances the second half of the season to make the playoffs and we blew it with poor efforts. I don't think they would make the excuses some here do. It is not accusing the team of being slackers to say we have some personnel who do not bring it each and every night. While we won our last two games against Minnesota, the last one can hardly be counted. As I recall (could be wrong), that game did not impact either team regarding the playoffs. More importantly, we blew key games down the stretch which killed our playoff run. ------------------ "We're having a pretty good time considering one day we're all going to die." Steve Martin, 1976
Mobley and Francis cancel out the Jazz trio alone, add in Taylor and the Rockets are far more talented. Webber is better than Francis, but Mobley and Taylor combined are better than Stojackitup and Christie. All Doug does is play defense. Mobley and Taylor blow away Brandon and Wally. Garnett does not impress me at all. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Save Our Game Action Forum! [This message has been edited by ZRB (edited June 21, 2001).]
What? Would you like to run down the roster of those teams and compare that to the Rockets roster? Too late you already loose. The rockets whole team is based around what was a two year second round 6th man until middle of the season and a one year point guard that is still trying to learn the position. The Rockets are not a team blessed with endless tallent just an endless supply of injuries to their front court players all year. Lets run down the Rosters anyway just for the fun of it: The Jazz and the Rockets: PG. Stockton - Francis toss up or slight edge to Jazz SG. John Starks - Cat big edge to Rockets SF. Bryon Russell - Anderson edge Jazz. Russell is a better scorer, rebounder and defender. PF Malone - Taylor Big edge Jazz Center Ostertag - Whoever was healthy slight edge Jazz. Are you expecting me to give the edge to the rockets when they did not even have a starting center most nights? Bench: Jazz- Manning, Marshel, Polonyce, Benoit, Vaughn Rockets- KT, Moochie, Collier, Cato, Walt, Bull Edge Jazz Now lets look at...Rockets and Kings: PG Williams - Francis Big edge Rockets SG Christie - Cat Slight edge Rockets SF Stojakovic - Anderson Big edge Kings PF Webber - Taylor Huge edge Kings C Divac - Flavor of the month edge Kings Bench Kings Jackson, Pollard, Turkoglu, Berry edge Kings Once again edge Kings Now onto the Suns PG Kidd - Francis slight edge suns SG Delk - Cat edge Houston SF Marion - Anderson Very big edge Suns PF Googs - Taylor toss up C Rodgers - No one was ever healthy toss up Bench Suns Santiago, Del Negro, Perry edge Houston Even Minnesota and Houston PG Brandon - Francis slight edge Houston SG Peeler - Cat big edge houston SF Wally - Anderson big edge Minn PF KG - Taylor Astronomical edge Minn C no one important toss up Bench Billups, Ellis, Mitchell, Slater, Nosteravich Toss up Edge Minn Sorry but I don't see Houston as being more tallented than any of those teams. In every case the other teams front court is far superior to ours. And please explain one thing to me. When the Rockets loose to Sac by 7 you call that a lack of effort and heart. When the 76ers loose to Sac or one of the others by 20 you call that just loosing to good teams. Why? ------------------
Stocton-Francis edge Jazz? Lay off the crack! Maybe the Stockton of 97, but not 2001. Those talent evaluations are funny. I don't care how young or old the Rockets are, they should still play as hard as they can in every single game, and they did not do that last season. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Save Our Game Action Forum!
I've followed this thread with interest. Some fans seem to take it as a personal insult if you comment that the Rockets as a team did not play as hard as they should have every game. I don't know how you could watch every game and not conclude that. Much has been made of how much this team likes one another. I'd rather have really good players who don't like each other that much, but play hard every night and leave it all on the floor, than good guys like Rogers and Wiz. These team by team comparisons are amusing. A team wins ten more games and kicks your behind. They're better. If we want to beat them, we have get better. That means personnel changes. You can't have personnel changes if you keep everyone. I've said before that some of the team played respectably pretty much every night, but that is a short list. We need more like them. ------------------ "We're having a pretty good time considering one day we're all going to die." Steve Martin, 1976
The last game against Minnesota wouldn't matter or shouldn't be counted unless... The players on your team have a huge amount of heart, and don't want to lose no matter what! ------------------
ZRB: Just out of curiosity, why are the evaluations funny? Seems like you're slipping into tweak mode . ------------------ Lacking inspiration at the moment...
ZRB, There were nights when the Rockets did not give their best effort, your right but that was not the point. You said that we should look to Philly as a model of how to bring your best effort to the floor every single night. You basically claimed that Philly has more heart than the Rockets and I am simply using the examples in this thread that they do not have more heart and that they do not give their best effort every single night. I gave you nine examples of how Philly lost by close to 20pts or over 20pts, some by good teams some by not so good teams. You claim that it was not a lack of heart from the 76ers but just them comming up against good teams. However, when the Rockets loose by 7 to SAC you claim a lack of effort. This seems like a double standerd to me. I am still waiting for you explination of this double standerd. It is my belief that the 76ers good record is more a product of their weak conferance than a product of their heart. ------------------ [This message has been edited by crash5179 (edited June 22, 2001).]
First of all, I don't think that the Rockets' bench is that bad. Walt, Kenny, MOOCHIE, Carlos, and Bullard are all solid role players. Moochie and Kenny could be starters, and are both capable of putting up big numbers. Lets see those comparisons: Stocton, Malone, Marshall: sorry, Jazz ge the edge. Stockton was efficient, Malone was excellent, and Marshall was one of the all-round best players in the league. Marshall one of the best in the league? I don't think so. Mo Taylor cancels out Marshall. Stockton may have been better than Francis in 97, but now it's not even close. Mobley and Malone don't match up, but it is only a slight Jazz edge there. Overall, the Rockets are far more talented. Who ever plays center for the Rockets is better than Ostertag or Polynice. Mooch is better than Vaughn. Russel is better than Anderson, but Walt is better than Starks. Overall, the Rockets are a much more talented team. Suns: Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, Cliff Robinson - here's your best case - but Jason Kidd was more consistent than Francis, Marion aws more valuable than Mobley (rebounds and defense!), and Robinson was a better 3rd option than Taylor Francis and Kidd is a wash. Both are good players. Mobley is better than Marion, who could not be depended on for consistent offense. You wouldn't see him explode for 35+. Taylor and Robinson is a wash. Mooch is better than Delk. Anderson cancels out Ellie. Walt, Kenny, and Bullard cancel out Rogers. The rest of the Suns team is garbage. Cato is as good as Tsakadasedkasdeeitus. When the Rockets played the Suns, Hakeem was healthy. That is a massive edge for the Rockets. Wolves: Garnett, Brandon, Wally - another borderline case, but Garnett is so multi-talented that he blows away Francis, Brandon and Mobley wash, as do Wally and Taylor. Garnett is one of the most overrated players in the game. He puts up great all around stats, but will rarely supply an offensive explosion when the Wolves need one. I'd say that Garnett versus Francis is only a slight edge for Garnett. Mobley crushes Brandon, and Taylor is just as good as Wally. The rest of the Wolves are CBA players. The Rockets have a much better supporting cast. When Hakeem was healthy, the Rockets destroy the Wolves talent-wise. Sacramento: Webber, Christie, Stojakovic Webber's better than Francis, Mobley has a minor edge over Christie (imo), but Stojakovic was significantly better than Taylor. Webber has a slight edge over Francis, but Mobley absolutely destroys Christie. I can't see how you could call that a slight edge. Stojackitup and Taylor could be a slight edge to Stojackitup. The top three talents overall are a wash for these teams, but the supporting cast for the Rockets is superior. Moochie is better than Jackson, Hakeem destroys Divac, and Anderson fills Christie's defensive role nicely. The Rockets have Walt, Kenny, Bullard and Carlos (all solid role players) coming off the bench, when the Kings have Pollard and Turkoglu. I'd say it's a wash at best, with maybe a slight edge to the Rockets. As you can see, I disagree with all of your talent evaluations. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Save Our Game Action Forum!
----Great Post Crash---- These so called "lack of effort" games also occured because of the youth factor. Next season we will win a lot more close games. There will be a dramatic drop-off in these no effort games when Cato is gone also. ------------------ Go Rockets!!! SS
Ahhh... you're gone from pessimist to total homer . To say that Mo T cancels out some of those people... errr... well... if ya think so . Mo T is one-dimensional. That's why I don't rate him very highly compared to people like Marshall, who can score, board, and play D. ------------------ Newbiehad... coming to a bbs near you, October 31st.
You aren't impressed with a near-seven-footer who handles like a guard, can D up any position from PG to C, carries a marginally talented team to the playoffs every year, and is the hardest worker on the court in every game he plays? What would you like, three-pointers from half court and quadruple-doubles every other game? Garnett is the best forward in the NBA this side of Tim Duncan. He is first team All-NBA defense every year, an Allstar every year, and a perennial contender for MVP. Not to mention he does all this for a team with Terrel Brandon as its second best player. If KG and Marbury were still together, his team would be battling with the Jazz and Spurs for the Midwest title every year. And don't forget he has accomplished all this before the age of 25. Kobe may be the best 25-and-under player in the league, but KG is a close second. ------------------