Harden averaged 25 ppg, 8 apg, and 5 rpg in the series against the Clippers in 2015. But Dwight averaged 18 ppg and 14 rpg. Ariza averaged 17 ppg (on over 40% 3pt shooting) and 7 rpg. Harden led the team, but you've been trying to argue he had a bad supporting cast when he didn't.
Not to diminish Harden's great contributions in that playoffs run. But I have been saying this when people said Harden led us to the WCF. We wouldn't have been able to go to the WCF if not for that amazing 4th quarter in Game 6 when Josh Smith and Corey Brewer saved the series while Harden was watching on the bench.
So is that 1 quarter more important than dropping 30+ in game 7? Is that 1 quarter more important than Harden averaging what he did the entire series? Did Kerr lead the Bulls to that championship because he hit the series winning shot?
Did I say that? Stop being so defensive about Harden, man. What I am saying is that if not for the heroic of Smith and Brewer in that quarter, we would not be able to say that "Harden led us to the WCF" because there would not be a WCF for us. Morey said that toward the end of the 3rd quarter, our chances of winning that game was something like less than 0.1%. The fact that it was JSmoove and Brewer, two NBA cast-offs, that saved the day added to the unlikeliness of what happened. (If it was Harden dropping 20 points in that quarter to make the comeback, it would have been remembered as one of the greatest performances in NBA history.) So it was pretty much just pure luck. It's like hitting a full court shot blind folded. We like to say that if not for Chris Paul's hamstring, we would have won a championship. But the probability of us winning the championship with a healthy CP3 was much, much lower than the probability of us losing that series to the Clippers. So if we want to say that we were unlucky to not win the championship in 2018, then we should also say that we were EXTREMELY lucky to be able to advance to the WCF in 2015. I'm sorry. That's not a good comparison. Kerr's shot was possible because of MJ's presence on the floor. Harden wasn't on the floor during Josh Smith's miracle performance. Besides, I never said that Josh Smith led us to the WCF. Again, stop putting words in my mouth.
I understand the love for Curry, and while I think he's overrated, I know he's a great player (and he has already "carried" a couple of historic, contending teams, even if they only got one somewhat cheap, injury-aided title). ... But he is absolutely not better than Harden by any worthwhile measure. He's had one season that is even in the contest with any of Harden's previous four seasons, and they didn't even win a title that year. The only thing he really does better than Harden is shoot. That's a huge part of the game, of course, but its' not like Harden is a bad shooter by any means. Give Harden Kevin Durant, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green; or hell, even just a healthy Chris Paul. Watch how many titles he wins. Especially if you throw Scott Foster in jail, where he belongs.
While I get what you're saying, I think you're kind of skirting around the fact that, while Brewer and Smoove's miracle was huge, we probably don't win any of the other three games we needed to advance without Harden. The point I think you're ultimately trying to make is that no one does it alone. That is no more true of Harden than it is of Curry, Lebron, or Jordan (not to say that Harden is as good as the latter two). So even though he didn't have a miracle comeback led by the bench, you can just as easily say Curry never would have had the chance to lead the Warriors to a title if not for Dray, Klay, and the slew of injuries their opponents suffered. You're also probably right that the odds of us winning the title even with a healthy Paul that year were far from 100% (even if you remove Scott Foster from existence, too), but I think it was far more likely than not given the way things went down. This all comes down to the fact that it's silly to judge players by how many championships they won. Championships are team accomplishments, not individual ones. Not to mention how many variables there are and how much luck plays a role. I think when you look closely and examine the things we can know about individual contributions, it's pretty certain to me that Harden is the best player in NBA history without a title, and also better than a good chunk of stars who DO have titles... Curry included.
That's actually the opposite of what you implied. You posted a graphic that demeaned the Rockets' supporting cast. You were trying to imply that Harden carried a trash supporting cast, not that "no one does it alone".
Actually, my point is more than that. My point is, using 2015's WCF appearance to show Harden's greatness is not accurate. It was a lucky win and Harden wasn't even part of that miracle comeback. He didn't play very well that game, shooting 5-20 with only 3 assists. If we lost that game, a lot of people would point to it as another Harden choke job in elimination game. In fact, Chris Paul outplayed Harden in that series in almost every advanced category. We were extremely lucky to get by the Clippers. If you want to show how great Harden is, you should point to the overall numbers Harden did. The 2018 playoffs is a better indicator of how Harden could lead a talented team to the WCF in a very competitive conference.
Everything is just your opinion. Fact of the matter is Curry is a 2 x MVP and 3 x Champion. Wether you think they’re ‘cheap’ doesn’t matter. You’re the same type of guy that gets triggered to no end when Bill Simmons called Harden’s assists ‘cheap’ yet you’re complaining about Curry’s championships being cheap? What? Also it’s not like Harden didn’t have multiple chances against the Warriors the last 5 years even before the Warriors got KD and even a golden opportunity after KD went down. I personally think he got mentally broken when it comes to the playoffs since 2015 when he fumbled the game away twice in the end against the Warriors. In regards to your last point. Harden is a bad shooter.... in the playoffs (when it matters most). He’s a career 33% shooter from 3. The last 5 years have been particularly bad. Sorry but you’re not going to win a Championship with your main guy shooting that poorly on extremely high volume while turning the ball over 4+ times a game while only averaging around 6.5 assists per game.
Youre also not going to win a championship with Curry as your best player. Well, maybe if practically the entire league has a terrible year of key injuries. Alot of the credit for that fluke in 2015 goes to Iggy and Klay. And no Love, Kyrie of course https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sb...-significant-nba-injury-in-the-last-12-months
My point is that argument goes both ways (and goes harder the opposite way you're arguing, IMO). That Rockets team had no business being 2nd place and having HCA against the Clippers. They had no business winning four games against them. Howard was (and is) overrated as all hell, and even he missed half the season. 40% of our starting lineup was injured by playoff time, guys who played significant roles in the regular season (even though they still weren't that good): Bev and Donuts. We had a pair of geriatric point guards trying to stop Chris Paul (and later Steph Curry), and we had a guy who thought he was Hakeem trying to score in the post. We had a lineup full of guys who couldn't shoot on a team that loved to shoot. And Harden led them to victory with incredible performances time and time again. Did we get lucky with a miracle bench performance in game six? Absolutely. But that doesn't take away from how amazing it was that we got that far in the first place. Amazingness that happened by and large because of Harden. Smith and Brewer are pretty mediocre role players by today's standards outside of one unforgettable 4th quarter. EDIT: But as long as we're on the topic, while only a tangential point, I think Harden deserves some credit for not pouting on the bench that night, and actually cheering his teammates on. For as much of a diva as people love calling him, how many other superstars/MVPs do you think would do that? ... Though I suppose you could argue that wouldn't fly with him today, heh.
Lol bruh, 99% of everything anyone says in any sports discussion is an opinion. But the point is I believe there are more quantifiable and intuitive facts to justify my opinion than there are for yours. P.S. MVP awards are "opinions", too. Just lots of them together. And they're often wrong. Everything your'e saying is opinion, too... Literally almost everyone shoots worse in the playoffs than the regular season. Harden's dropoff is slightly greater than average because of a small handful of factors (IMO... though with evidence): The unusually high volume of long range and high difficulty (step back) jumpers he takes. As defenses ramp up, those shots are affected more, and there's also greater variance, leading to some memorably horrific games. Playoff officiating allowing for more contact (and more Scott Foster)... which is total BS, games should be called consistently no matter the month, but I digress. Point is this disproportionately affects Harden. Harden has almost exclusively played elite (top 5-6) defenses over the last several playoffs, with just a couple exceptions. Harden, as a result of generally average supporting casts (outside of 2017-18) has to bust his ass to get us to the playoffs in a top seed. He is playing arguably the best offensive basketball of all time on one end, while upping his defensive game on the other end. Guys like LeBron are well known for taking it easy in the regular season because they have the luxury of playing on stacked teams in crappy conferences (until last year), or Curry... just on stacked teams. Just look at the MPG difference. Honestly, do you really think that if you gave Harden freaking Klay Thompson and Draymond Green that we wouldn't be better? (Let alone Kevin Durant) Do you really think there's no chance that's enough to get the Rockets over the hump at least once or twice? Especially after seeing what we did with Paul? Be honest with yourself here... Let alone the officiating factor (plz plz PLZ get rid of Scott Foster, NBA).
MVP doesnt mean anything when its given just cuz you are the best player on the best team. In Curry's case the deck was stacked so much in his favor in those 3 rings it highlighted his strength which is shooting and erased his major weaknesses which is lack of separation, athleticism and health. I guess you can give him credit for being better than Klay Thompson and Draymond Green? Talking about Harden's shooting, the only time he didnt face a stacked deck was last last season. If you wanna say he choked when he got 1 all star vs 2 then ok he "choked" lol. Otherwise yeah Harden has a bad FG% when it matters most. Thats cuz he is always outgunned in the playoffs esp vs GSW. Even Lebron got swept when he faced KD and co. And thats the 1-2 best player of all time. Hey whats Curry's FG this season when he isnt guarded by potential bust Killian Hayes? Funny how his FG dropped when he doesnt have a multi allstar team anymore.
Curry can't carry Harden's jock, he can't even sniff it...although he would probably like it. That being said, he obviously can't carry a team like Harden has. Too frail and unable to perform without multiple all stars covering his weaknesses and opening up his shot.
I don't disagree with most of what you say. Anyway, I think it's a waste of time to argue whether a guy can carry a mediocre team to the playoffs, even deep in the playoffs. No mediocre team can win a championship, even with the best player in the world. (One might argue that Hakeem did it in 1994. But that would be disrespectful to his teammates who really had the heart of a champion.) That 2015 team wasn't going to win it all. Arguing how much Harden carried them is a moot point to me. A more meaningful question is whether a guy can lead a talented team to a championship. I believe Harden can. I think Curry can too, in a very different way. That's the kind of player you want as your franchise player. This is why when debating which player we should trade Harden for, I argue that we should not ask which player is the best now. We should ask which player has a chance of being the kind of player who can lead a good team to a championship. I don't think Simmons is that kind of guy. Nor is Siakem. I think Jaylen Brown or Jamal Murry, maybe Herro too, has that potential.
End of the day curry had two championships to zero for harden. End of the day harden has proven he chokes and shrinks in the playoffs.
