I hate Joel's grift but all of this is true. The Church itself and Joel's ministry are two separate entities. They are two huge businesses that benefit one another in a complicated tax system. The Church doesn't pay tax while Joel himself does. He's mega rich whole the church makes enough money to function but would not be able to survive without attendance. My BIL worked for Lakewood for almost 10 years and I have worked in churches on and off for parts of my life. Churches are a business like it or not. So does healthcare, finance, tech. Lobbying to pay little to no tax is as American as Capitalism itself. Congress literally rewarded corporations last year.
Wut? Everything he makes from the books is based on lakewood and him being a man of god. Why can't this man of god dip into his own pockets and help out the church since we can all agree its his church instead of using funds that can help some one more fortunate? I can't believe some people are trying to condone this. What exactly are these employees doing anyway is this a church or a corporation?
No-one condones it but the law is the law and you live willingly in the United States where Big Business has as many rights as citizens do (as established by the Supreme Court with Citizen's United). If you don't like it then move or vote to change it. Your choice.
From your anecdotal experience, is the Lakewood culture about community or generating revenue for their little empire? I too have worked in a couple smaller churches under different leadership. Although it was never spoken openly, behind the scene, it was very clear revenue generation was very important. Meaning they were willing to invest in the individual, however if there were no dividends after a period of time (them becoming part of the church and tithing/contributing), leadership would put less and less time into them. An example would be assisting the homeless. It was cool to have a feel good event on Saturday morning to go out and about to hand out stuff to the homeless, but it needed to be wrapped up by noon so everyone can enjoy their altruistic dopamine high in the afternoon.
Most churches that size have a board of directors that hold the Pastor accountable. I know off the top of my head that Lakewood offers drug addiction counseling, grievance counseling, marriage counseling (all with real trained and licensed counselors, not just Pastors like small churches). I don't attend Lakewood so I cannot account for what all it does, but I know they've always supported a lot of overseas missions and I have personally seen Osteen (in a small media-free setting) give a check for $50,000 to Feed The Children, so I know they are working in the community.
I am glad you have brought all of this additional information to light. I feel like nuance has been lost in today's society, and instead we read raging headlines and jump to conclusions without taking a closer look. If things are wrong, illegal, or immoral, let's at least try to get all of the facts (which is more and more difficult to do these days with today's reporting), then draw a conclusion. I feel like the population at large draws conclusions first, digs in, then is uninterested in the explanation.
I agree with the sentiment that if the funds went mostly to all to the employees, then good for them. That was the point of PPP: payroll and rent. Now sometimes, the owner or president or CEO (whatever their structure is) is also taking a big chunk as an employee, and that would just be a bad look, though not illegal.
Not sure if I can answer your first question but if it's like any other very large church then I'd say the culture is about community but with a large building comes LARGE bills. Musicians have to get paid, Sound guys have to get paid, Security has to get paid, Cleaning has to get paid, Administrative has to get paid and that's not including the cost of keeping to building up. A lot of very large churches Like Lakewood, Woodlands, Second Baptist also do TV which costs them money. The members know the finances if they care to look because these churches have open records to show where their money is going. They decide as a church how it's spent. Some even have votes. It's like working on a cruise ship that's run by the entire staff.
Yes there are people in this very thread condoning it just read about 3 posts up. Did you just come at me with a move or vote blast. I did vote and will move and I still don't like it. I'm glad we are recognizing this is not a religious institute but Big Business.
It's not hard to draw conclusions when you see a church pastor supposedly a man of god pimping his new 300,000 dollar car on instagram. What message am I supposed to get from that? How does that make me closer to god?
It can be both. Your problem is not realizing that money and religion have been married since religion became a thing. There's a reason why the Catholic church has it's own city. PS: I only tease about the move out stuff, it's a funny trope but true. We as Americans make a devils bargain with capitalism and it's only right that we acknowledge it.
If you want to rip on Joel for pimping a flashy, expensive car, go right ahead, I dont even disagree with you. This conversation started as a discussion regarding Lakewood's receipt and use of PPP loan funds. It's been explained that Lakewood was eligible and had every right to get apply for and obtain that loan. Focusing on that issue alone, I have no problem with what they did. Now you've shifted from that and are just complaining that Joel is rich and flashy. Ok, great. That's the other problem I see with the lack of information and nuance. It becomes a shell game arguing over this stuff, once one counterpoint is made they just switch to complaining about something else.
I think him pimping a flashy car shows his priorties and is a reason he did not need that money to take care of his employees and flock. He claimed he had not used PPP but he did no matter if it personally or through the church, we all know that everything he has and does is tied to his church and ministry. I am not shifting anything I think it's all tied up. Do you really think he is that cash poor that he was gonna have to close down?
You need to read up on what a 503(c)(3) corporation is. They are non-profit corporations that are set up for religious, charity or educational purposes. These include churches. The corporations do not make profits and they are exempt from income tax. However, they still have employees that receive salaries. Lakewood (and even most small churches I know) have some full time staff that do administrative and other work, in addition to priests and ministers that also usually receive salaries. There is nothing weird or illegal about it. These church workers are allowed to get paid, they have families.
I don't need to read upon anything, did I say what he did was illegal? His whole enterprise is extremely weird him posting Lambo pics on instagram as a man of god is weird. Nobody is saying these people should not have been paid I just question was an emergency loan needed to pay these people when you have other people whose jobs are more in danger. I think that's something every christian would be asking themselves? If his employees are so in danger why is he buying Lambos?
Thank you for proving my shell game point from two posts ago. You asked "is this a church or a corporation?" And I answered that a church IS a corporation. Now you reply with this. I don't play shell games, carry on.
Osteen doesn't fund the church, nor does he get paid by the church. Although, his name does bring in congregants and thereby offerings. I do recall that he does pay tithes to the church on his income from his book sales..which is how he makes his money. If Scribner publishers took the Loan, would you be just as upset if Stephen King bought another house?
You still don't get it. They aren't his employees. They work for the Church. Two separate entities. Lakewood Church and Joel Osteen ministries are separate companies. Joel can do whatever he wants with his money. He makes millions off his books and people pay him to speak at private events. The Church isn't buying Lambos.
