This is so old, it is ridiculous. No one in their right mind who has watched more than 10 basketball games would say that Francis, and this team as a whole, can go anywhere in the playoffs, if they even make it. What's worse, the elite teams we are trying to contend with (LAL, SAC, DAL, SA, MIN) are constantly retooling every year even though they are consistent playoff teams. What do we do? Miss the playoffs for half a decade and then talk about "We can't trade Francis yet" or "Give this team another chance"...when will they ever run out of chances with you people? Over the last 3-4 years, I would rank the overall success of each Western franchise as the following: 1. Lakers 2. SAntonio 3. Sacto 4. Dallas 5. Minn Now let's look at how much their roster has evolved while each has maintained or improved over this time period: LAL - EJones and ECampbell >> GRice >> GPayton and KMalone constants >> Shaq, Kobe, DFish, RFox SA - DRob (retired), Avery >> SSmith and DAnderson >> Manu and TParker...and they tried to bring in Kidd and/or JO'neal as well constants >> TDuncan, MRose, BBowen Sacto - JWill, Hedo and SPollard >> MBibby, BJackson and BMiller constants >> CWebb, Vlade, DChristie Dall - RLafraentz >> NVExel >> AWalker and AJamison constants >> Dirk, MFinley, Nash Minny - Rasho, TBrandon, Malik Sealy (RIP) >> Kandi, Sam, Spree constants >> KG, Wally Clearly each of the "successful" teams we are trying to join are not afraid to make drastic changes. LA traded Eddie and Rice SA tried to replace their starting PG the year after they won everything SAC has brought in All-Stars at PG and C DAL has changed everything around the Big 3 MIN wasn't satisfied with just making the playoffs, completely overhauled their entire supporting cast, and are now battling for homecourt Obviously, none have moved their centerpieces: Shaq, Kobe, KG, Timmy and the Big 3 are the core of their respective teams, but is Francis really in that class? Collectively, that is 13 All-Stars (Jones, Rice, Campbell, Bibby, Miller, Brandon, Cassell, Sprewell, Payton, Malone, SSmith, Van Exel, Walker) who have come and gone among those five teams in the same time period that we have been waiting for Francis to deliver even one postseason appearance. I don't consider Francis, despite what All-Star voters think, as on par with the aforementioned centerpieces. He could be, but so could a lot of other talented players in this league. Vince and AI are both going to be on the block, and each has accomplished at least as much on the court as Francis. Why is he so special? I say the core of this team is now Yao Ming. Everyone else is a supporting player. As such, no one else deserves to be exempt from consideration in a deal that might help us join that elite company. I'm not going to get into any statistical analysis or pipedream scenarios for how to fix what is ailing this team. The solution is much more simple and obvious than that to anyone who understands basketball: The best big man always wins (unless it is Jordan). All other players are irrelevant if they cannot help said Big Man play at his best. Francis does nothing to help Yao, and his play is hurting as a result of Yao's presence. Hence, this team needs to move on without him to become something better.
This post is ridiculous. So now it's a fable that the Rockets are going anywhere? The Rockets are currently slotted in the #7 spot in the West. That would have them facing Minnesota in the first round. The Rockets are 2-2 vs Minnesota this year. I don't know where you got that Vince Carter is on the block, but Allen Iverson is on the block because the guy doesn't practice, bucks authority, is ridiculously injury prone, and Philadelphia isn't going anywhere fast. The Rockets are 7th in the West, Philadelphis is 10th in the East. MAJOR difference. As much of a disappointment this team has been the last 2 weeks, lets at least wait until the season is over before proclaiming the Rockets will get slaughtered in the West and we shouldn't even watch the playoffs because it's a "fable" to think the Rockets can win. That is what is old and ridiculous. People saying "yeah, they might make the playoffs, but they're not going anywhere so just give up on them". I still want the Rockets to make the playoffs, and I still think they can do damage once they get in there.
I don't know where you got that Vince Carter is on the block, but Allen Iverson is on the block because the guy doesn't practice, bucks authority, is ridiculously injury prone, and Philadelphia isn't going anywhere fast. I think this was just a rumor in an article in Toronto's paper I still want the Rockets to make the playoffs, and I still think they can do damage once they get in there. Agreed and agreed. Nonetheless, short of being mediocre enough to make the playoffs and then winning a championship, if you do this every year you really start to lose you're fan base, imo. I think the Rockets can potentially make some noise in the playoffs, but don't think it will ever be possible for the team, as currently assembled with it's main components, to make it through 4 rounds of 7 game series given the way they perform under pressure. So to a certain extent, there is a point, though not a unique one on this board.
the fans in toronto hve turned on vc, and the team, repotedly, would trade him. but if they hope to keep the team in toronto they will need to bring in a guy who will keep fans comming to the games. i think a steve or vc deal could work, but vince has been playing soft after all the injuries. and the one ting i love about steve is that he will allways play harder anyone out there.
why do we want vince; all he is, is a flashy player ex: dunks. He is a streaky shooter from what i seen and also injury prone.
I like the orginal post. Every team is always trying to improve, if you stay put, you'd fall behind. Of course you can improve with the personnels you got but you have to judge whether it is realistic after the plays you've seen all these years.
but when these teams "retool" they dont give up their first or second best player. what i cant understand is why so many people want to get rid of a guy that has produced, is loved by the fans, gets along with his teammates, and is the face of this franchise to many many people. i agree that steve and yao dont go together like peas and carrots as one philospoher might say, but undeniably a big part of that has to do with factors other than steve and yao. i just dont think it wise to try and break this team down without putting the pieces together to make it work (ie a 4 and a 3). you just dont throw away a strength when you haven't fixed a weakness...
Considering the lack of true progress they have made this year - not to mention the dreadful basketball of the past 3 weeks, I expect any noise they make in the playoffs to be that of a loud thud. Even if they face Minn in the first round, I'd have to go with Minn because the Rockets have given us virtually no reason to think that they have the will to be able to elevate their game and focus to playoff level standards. So any "noise" they may make should be short-lived. Well, at least they should go out with a bang...
Err...I seem to recall a couple of posts from the GS game in this vein..."this is about heart. ... if this team walks around like a bunch of losers, then they're going to lose. And they are acting like losers ... The Rockets have rolled over and quit. To hell with them then, just blow this team up. If they're going to quit they aren't championship material to begin with." I wonder who wrote that...oh right, it was YOU, Rocks! There's nothing "ridiculous" about being dismayed, dispirited, and disgusted by the Rockets' recent play, you certainly showed it yourself, why are you admonishing others for having the same reaction?
If Two Stars are incompatible then you Trade one and develop arround the other. If the star to be traded has cohorts on the team [ones that only perform to his instruction]they should be traded as well.
I agree with the idea of Vince Carter..... If he can play like he did a couple of weeks ago when he played in Houston I'd take him over Francis.... He doesn't want to be the head leader on a team....sounds like we have a good spot for him here
PLEASE. This is Vince Carter's worst year and he's still averaging 44.8% over his career (ie. higher than Francis). When he's healthy he shoots around 46%. If Vince Carter is a streaky shooter then what is Steve? At least bother to check your stats before talking.
oh..i didnt know he was actually a good shooter, i was baseing off what i saw this year. My bad. And steve cant shoot.
First off, the "point" to my ridiculous thread was to hopefully inspire an end to these repeat threads about trading Steve, Yao vs. Steve, and all the other nonsense that is constantly rehashed over and over. Usually I refrain from becoming involved in these useless discussions, but that seems to be all there is to talk about these days, so I digress. Furthermore, as to the availability of Vince, AI, Francis, or about a dozen other "star" players, if you do not believe me, check out the latest edition of The Sporting News. Sean Deveney seems to agree with me that this could be quite an unusual offseason with so many premier players available including: CWebb SAR AI Antoine Walker VINCE CARTER STEVE FRANCIS Mashburn That list doesn't even include Free Agents-to-be: Kobe Nash Sheed KMart - all of whom could be included in a S&T for Steve All together, we could be seeing an unprecedented level of star relocation this offseason, similar to what MLB just had. So once again, let me restate what the true purpose of this 'ridiculous' thread was: It has become very clear that if ever there was a time to move Francis, this could be the rare opportunity to actually get something close to market value for him while actually improving the team around Yao. Forget everything else.
Kobe is pipe dream. Sheed/ Kmart would be awesome. Nash will be a huge upgrade for us at PG. CWebb/Mashburn are too injury-prone. AI/Walker are cancers. SAR/Carter doesn't fit this team.
I disagree with the premise of the original post. The difference between this team, and those is that those teams didn't make any significant changes to their core personnel unless it was forced upon them by outside forces. Consider the Lakers : "LAL - EJones and ECampbell >> GRice >> GPayton and KMalone constants >> Shaq, Kobe, DFish, RFox" Yes, that's a lot of change - but they never gave up a player critical to their success to get anything. Eddie Jones was made irrelevant by Kobe - we have no such superstar waiting in the wings to take Francis' place. When they signed Malone and Payton, they signed two players hoping to ride O'Neal to the first rings in their career. I'm not sure what lessons we should take from this - draft a superstar point guard, and wait a few years then move Francis for something to fit Yao's style of play better? I can see where that would work - except for the part were we draft a superstar point guard. Then of course, we have to wait for Yao to win three rings, and become the most dominant player in the game and wait for a couple of veterans who desperately want to validate their careers to join us for peanuts. San Antonio's changes were forced upon them by the retirements of key parts of their team. If they hadn't had to change their core from Duncan and Robinson because of the retirement of Robinson do you think they would've? Dallas is practically a case-study in why not to mess with their core. They went from an up and coming team with a potential superstar, to a team that doesn't play defense and is saddled with a bunch of tweeners and bad contracts. Go change, go! Sacramento has kept the core of their team intact, and the only major trade they made was the Williams for Bibby trade, and Williams was barely a starter at the end. Again, the three most important players on the team have remained constant - Webber, Peja and Vlade - as well as Doug Christie. Minnesota probably wouldn't have done anything had Brandon not had to retire due to injury - again, a change forced upon someone by outside forces - and then use that potential cap space to get Spree and Cassell. I guess our best bet is to hope that two solid players become such raging assholes that their team is willing to give them away for free. I'm not saying we shouldn't trade Francis if the trade improves the team - but if we go into the offseason with the idea, "We've got to trade Francis, and if we don't, the offseason is a disaster", we're going to end up with a deal like Boston did for Walker - Raef LaFrentz. If the right deal comes along, sure - but there's no need to be desperate.
You can include either Ray Allen or Rashard Lewis in the list. Look at the clutchfans front page. There's two articles from Seattle papers noting Lewis speculating about him or Allen leaving in trade. The Sonics fan board wants to trade Lewis and promote Vlad Rad at 3. The Sonics Gm, however, may prefer to move Allen and keep Flip Murray - depending on what they can get in return. Sonics want a power forward so we can deliver in a 3-way with Portland (SAR) or Chicago (Chandler) or Indy (Harrington), maybe even Washington (Kwame) or Memphis (Swift).
