Communism v Nazism

A note about far left and right… I personally think nazism, has far leftism thrown into it, IE socialist aspects, but it’s a unique blend in a specific time and place in history and for the interest of simple discourse I am using it in the way most people in the US have come to think of it. For more complex discussions about nazism there are reasons to argue that horseshoe theory is a better way to look at things. That is, that eventually totalitarianism leads to similar sides on each “end” of the spectrum which has some flaws. But yes for simplification and discourse we are using the common right wing nazism comparison because I want to see the other side of this argument when thinking about left and right. What is too far left? Now I don’t want to do a victory lap. I was posting because I wanted people to discuss it and so far no one seemed up to the challenge. You however, have responded fully so credit to you.

Now, one thing to add, I don’t think I am underestimating how many people would disagree that nazism is far right. Aside from a few people on youtube who both hate the far left and Nazism, yet still get called Nazis, I don’t think most people think far from the basic far right equals Nazis and KKK in America at least. Let’s go forward though because that’s not the meat of this thread. The meat of the thread lies in what is too far left.

First, you said another poster said too far left is maximized individual liberty. I didn’t see it but that’s not left or right. That’s a libertarian argument and the left and right spectrum is not an issue of liberty. On the far right and left both become authoritarian and totalitarian in nature which is the opposite of liberty. This opens up a can of worms that supports horseshoe theory of course or even other ways of conceptualizing politics, but I digress. That’s not the meat of this thread. You did however get to it I think and I apologize if I didn’t respond to you, because I don’t want to ignore people. I get accused of this in threads where I have dozens of replies and I do my best to reply to everyone (except certain trolls who know who they are when they read this.) I wasn’t trying to again have a “victory lap.”

You said communism is too far left. So do you agree that the hammer and sickle and other iconography is acceptable in modern society? Do you think the democrats should be turning a blind eye to it? More importantly do you think that Marxism is too far left?


As for some side points you brought up later:
I will also point out that Al Franken got caught up with damning photos in the me too movement at the right time. At a time when it was in vogue as well. The left routinely ignores black face still if it’s their own, yet the right is quick to cut ties with racists such as Tucker’s recent incident. I think you can find exceptions about the left censoring or cutting ties with people, but the exception does not make the rule they say. I feel the left and its control of silicon valley for example, has leveled censorship at anyone to the right these days. They have been caught banning people for simply wearing Trump hats for example. They target right leaning youtubers and ban them. They have long done this on Twitter as well. This is of course getting away from the meat of the thread. There was research done actually, and it was partisan, but if you look at silicon valley, it’s figure heads are openly left, and met after 2016 to figure what they could do to fix the election, and the recently leaked info about their censorship at FB wasn’t shocking to anyone watching this unfold over the past few years… they cut Trump supporters… they kill videos that are going viral that support opposing views… this is not news. There is a reason people are leaving for Parler. And as for ban-worthy leftist stuff I don’t think we should ban it, save for perhaps propaganda from hostile states like China and perhaps nazi imagery if Communists will get even treatment, but the problem isn’t should we ban far left stuff when it comes to the end of the day. And your examples are so tame. Arguing about phones and taking stuff? First of all that shouldn’t be tolerated, the communist rhetoric part, and neither should the extreme hate from the left. There have been openly racist views pushed by the far left that go unchecked still and these people are allowed to take tenure at university and hold other positions when someone who merely voted for Trump, JUST VOTED, and may not even like that man, can be banished from academics or other fields, like media, because the left has a hold on social media and traditional media. They tolerate one far extreme ideology all the time, hammer and sickle and all welcome baby. But they do not tolerate a Trump supporter on FB. While you may have a grasp or idea of far left politics, many lack or are unwilling to acknowledge it because the political momentum in our culture is being fueled by people who are on the left and would rather attack the right because they don't really have an ideological limit. IMO. I don't see many with a limit to their views because they don't know what far left is. Many on this thread for example are avoiding this discussion because they are OK with communism, socialism, and marxism, which IMO are all far left, and want to argue the nuances of it to justify it. They don't want to admit this and come to terms with this because no one wants to be far anything. You're obviously a moderate so props to you. I appreciate being able to converse with someone like yourself Nolen.

 

Mighty Mog is a known Chinese propagandist on this board. Take his posts with a grain of salt.

Mighty, the "game" in this thread on not to explain the difference from nazism and make excuses for communism. Like so many have done. The game here is to test you, and others, and see if you can identify what far leftism is. Otherwise, I consider you a replicant.

 

CCP bootlickers don't matter.

 

LOL I don't buy tech made in China because it's got backdoor spy crap in it and it's of inferior quality. I also don't use Amazon and avoid buying Chinese anything whenever possible. I pay extra to do so, but the quality is always higher so I don't mind.

 

In response to Nolen, your post is long so forgive my time in responding and I cut your quote out because of size limitations. Let’s talk about some points here. Apologies to others reading, this will be confusing but I think Nolen can follow it. Our discourse has become scattered on a variety of topics....

As for the side discourse about libertarians.. they are leaning very left… very progressive… and support open border… but also gun rights, less gov’t programs, etc. So yeah I don’t see it as left or right at all. In fact I would say they have openly veered left since 2016 and have alienated a lot of libertarians who don’t usually want open borders in a sort of new strain of global libtertarianism promoted by big money from the **** brothers. But that is really not relevant so I have no reason to argue that it’s maybe more or less right or left. It’s not an ideology I align with though I do lean toward libertarian sub categories myseld. Specifically minarchy though not perfectly.

Now on to more pressing issues. The hammer and sickle is waved openly by far leftists when they go out in public to events. I also used to be involved in the democratic movement and we’d meet with far left groups and communism and such, and che etc… all of it is standard and acceptable to these people, if not supported. These far left types are openly embraced by the mainstream left. I don’t really know how else to give you my own observations and personal experiences, but as someone who first hand has attended democratic state events and meetings, and even meetings between activist groups, I can tell you I lived it. I know. And I still see it.

Then you mention the nazi flag. Personally I think Hollywood has used Nazis, rightfully so, as the ultimate villain. The flag is iconic and easy to associate with great evil. The actions make for a great movie and an even better villain when story telling. Communism, the flags and imagery, IMO should be associated with evil even though they are largely tied to ideas and not actions in our minds, because A: Hollywood leans left and doesn’t villainize it so much; not since the 80s at least. And B: Our history teachers have failed to properly teach the atrocities of communism; IE the Holodomor, the Cambodian Genocide, or Mao’s “cultural” revolution that killed by far the most. Somehow though, it’s acceptable for people to be communists, and still be allowed space at the table of free and open debate, while Nazis are immediately disassociated with and removed from that table. Now if someone at my dinner table said I’m a nazi, I would tell them to leave. If someone at my dinner table said they were a communist, I’d have a harder time telling them to leave because the people around me would think I acted to harshly. Why? Because people, especially academics, are in love with ideas. Communism espouses ideology that is like honey. Equality for all right? But that honey is a trap. They only way to ensure it is through freedom for none. The truth is freedom, means people are unqual. Some are better than others at making wealth. We can’t actually have communism/socialism and American values, which support life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, coexist.

As for Marxism, yes I agree. He points to a problem but his solution is sadly unrealistic. I try to explain to my friends who are Marxists and such that the ideology, and the words or Marx and others in this realm, sound great in theory. Then in practice we run into problems. This is why I feel countries that try socialism in earnest, as an extension of Marxism, always fall pray to human nature; IE corruption and greed. But largely I agree with you… pure libertarianism… impossible…. pure Marxism… impossible. And I actually also fall into the class fight category with my thinking. We should be trying to create a fair playing field as a solution, IMO. Not taking it from the rich though. That’s my personal thoughts though and we may disagree. But I really think part of the problem, which is a problem with capitalism, is the rich have rigged the game. We need to focus on unrigging the game. Getting rid of the ability to shove money in politicians’ pockets is the first step. They should only represent the people and should have to get individual donations from real people; not corporations which shouldn’t be treated as people. The real cancer today actually, is corporate/lobby money. This is hurting our capitalist society and it’s not cool to cheat at the game of capitalism. Flipping the game board is not the answer though. Enforcing the rules is important. They have changed the rules over the years to make it too slanted in their favor.

Now, as for the left right enforcing their own debate, this is largely up to observation. We both may be biased because of what we have seen in our life. But I have to say I don’t see the left enforcing their own on things like black face or sex scandals. Suddenly it goes from believe all women to believe some women, at the drop of a hat. Again, this type of argument is going to go on all day if we use anecdotal evidence, but I do think that it’s far more OK for the left to mess up and get a pass than the right because the left owns most of the media and holds more sway over popular opinion as a result. You can’t argue with that last part.

If you look at silicon valley, it’s figure heads are openly left in the far left California sense. But again this is a side argument. I don’t really want to go here today because of how much I’ve already responded.

As for the right being more hateful, I disagree. The hate from the left is just directed at white, and often male targets usually, or it’s often financial and directed at those wealthier than the said hater. I don’t approve of these types of hate any more than I would approve of hate on jews or black people. There is a false argument though that those who have power, or are even just connected to others with power because they share a skin color or sex, and may not have power, are fair game. This is perhaps the most damning and hateful lie of our century. But I disgress. Let’s continue on to conspiracy theories. Nothing wrong with them. And the left has been pushing conspiracy theories constantly about Trump and has been into them since the Internet came about. This is a mater of not trusting authorities and it’s said but this has been on the rise since Nixon/JFK bro. Anyway, conspiracy theories are a natural product of distrust in the authorities and freedom. I’m cool with that all the way because sometimes the theories turn out to be true.

As for MAGA hats, they are a hat with a campaign slogan bro. People aren’t making any kind of statement other than their support for Trump with it. If you want a free society, then the answer on violence is simple. NO! People shouldn’t be attacked for their beliefs. Even Nazis and Commies btw.

Now as for democratic socialism I think there is a fine line, but a line, between social programs and socialism. The label democratic socialism is still socialism and adding democratic doesn’t change it. So I guess you are technically a socialist and you say you are far left, but actually you may not be so socialist if you think what you’ve said to me. You may just be a run of the mill democrat who supports more spending on social programs. I really don’t think it’s the same as socialism, especially when you support the idea of a free market. Socialism is advocating something else entirely where the workers own the means of production. I am in good faith suggesting you have been swept up in the democratic socialist movement, which many of its proponents aren’t actually socialists. So I would recommend scrapping that term completely because it’s confusing and muddling the political sphere and it’s giving actual socialists more support than they deserve.

 

The left is NOT synonymous for liberty. Communist and socialism constrain liberty in the favor of the majority. They are diametrically opposed to one another.

Also labels are just words and they are are how we have discussions. Without agreed upon meanings for words, debate is impossible. What should I use instead of words? Should I use memes?

 

common ownership of the means of production.

This is socialism ... to take over the means of production... this is opposed to liberalism. Which is about liberty and consent. What if I want to excel and be prosperous and own property/the means of production? I'm not allowed to under socialism. Such things are illiberal.

I'm actually a liberal, a real one, not a fake one who supports authoritarian measures like socialism, and I believe in free markets, free trade, limited govt, and individual rights. These things are not a part of socialism.