1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Defund the Cops?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by B@ffled, Jun 4, 2020.

  1. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    59,079
    Likes Received:
    52,746
  2. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2001
    Messages:
    5,078
    Likes Received:
    6,754
    Lol only in Florida
     
  3. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    51,777
    Likes Received:
    20,431
    Why, since defunding the police doesn't mean getting rid of the police?
     
  4. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    39,181
    Likes Received:
    20,334
    They need to dump the term "Defund the police" - it's just too confusing.
     
    FranchiseBlade likes this.
  5. smoothie_king

    smoothie_king Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,116
    Likes Received:
    540
    Avoid the big boss man from knocking at your door.

     
  6. Commodore

    Commodore Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Messages:
    33,543
    Likes Received:
    17,505
    what makes you think Ellison wants a conviction?
     
  7. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    39,181
    Likes Received:
    20,334
    Another conspiracy theory from QAnon hatches!
     
    FranchiseBlade likes this.
  8. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,166
    Likes Received:
    48,318
    Ellison is now prosecuting because people didn't trust Mike Freeman Hennepin County DA. I personally am neutral on this move and as I while I wasn't fully sold on Freeman he is the only prosecutor in MN to successfully convict an LEO in the death of a civilian.

    For the record I've never been a supporter of Ellison and didn't vote for him but so far in this case he's made the right moves. The upgraded charges are backed by evidence. It's always taken a long time to release the body cam tapes and I don't think this is a matter of Ellison withholding release for political reasons.
     
    FranchiseBlade and B@ffled like this.
  9. B@ffled

    B@ffled Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2019
    Messages:
    1,567
    Likes Received:
    787
    I hope they take the needed to get the conviction.
     
  10. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    81,372
    Likes Received:
    121,702
  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    81,372
    Likes Received:
    121,702
    Not Public-Spirited
    Government-employee unions—including those for police—put the power and interests of their workers above the public interest:

    https://www.city-journal.org/government-employee-unions-public-interest

    excerpt:

    Liberal sympathy for organized labor doesn’t extend to police unions because cops are seen as the “bad proletariat.” Liberals try to paint the problems of police unions as unique to law enforcement, rather than endemic to unionized government. In the wake of the Floyd killing, some have called for the abolition of police forces—and, in Minneapolis, the city council has announced that it will “begin the process” of disbanding the city’s police department. On the other side, conservative aversion to government unions often stops short of police unions because conservatives worry that criticism of cop unions will be mistaken for criticism of the police. Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, for example, excluded police unions from Act 10, which dramatically weakened public-sector unions in his state.

    The deeper problem is that unionization and collective bargaining have made it almost impossible to bring about meaningful reform of state and local government, policing included. The consequences are huge, because the inability to reform government means that performance suffers and public trust in key institutions declines.

    Collective bargaining is not fundamentally about products or services—whether public safety, education, automobiles, or anything else—but about the power and interests of workers and management. Public-sector unions are in the business of winning better salaries and benefits, protecting job security, and advancing their members’ occupational interests. Organizational incentives, and state law, ensure that union leaders prioritize these amenities.

    Police and public schools are the institutions of government with which Americans most frequently engage. Police protect our most vulnerable citizens and allow communities to thrive. Schools offer opportunities for social mobility. There are thousands of heroic and devoted police officers and school teachers. But unionization and collective bargaining have enmeshed these two crucial government functions in red tape that too often protects the inept and abusive.

    Collective bargaining in the public-safety and educational sectors strips government executives of the tools they need to supervise and manage their workforces effectively. Police chiefs and school principals struggle to weed out poor performers. A few bad actors can undermine an entire organizational culture.

    ***
    Police officers accused of misconduct are, consequently, rarely disciplined or punished insofar as investigations are long, highly regulated, and allow for frequent appeals. One study found that the worst 5 percent of officers in the Chicago Police Department accounted for a third of all civilian complaints. But few were ever disciplined or removed. Jason Van Dyke, the officer who killed an unarmed 17-year-old Laquan McDonald in 2014, was among the officers with the most civilian complaints. But he remained on active duty.

    Teachers also enjoy extensive job protections that make them nearly impossible to fire. State laws and union contracts create a labyrinth of paperwork and processes. In most school districts, over 95 percent of teachers receive satisfactory ratings and get tenure (which means more job protections) after three years on the job. Many principals don’t even bother trying to dismiss bad teachers because of the costs involved. One study found that dismissing a veteran teacher for poor performance takes a minimum of two years; in Los Angeles and San Francisco, it takes at least five years.

    Even teachers accused of sexual misconduct rarely lose their jobs. Under many state laws or union contracts, an independent investigator—usually an independent law firm or the school superintendent—first vets any accusation. Then the case goes before an arbitrator chosen by the teachers’ union and school district. Usually arbitrators’ decisions split the difference and result in suspensions or fines rather than dismissal.

    As a result of such protections, New York City infamously put hundreds of teachers in “rubber rooms,” where they were paid full salaries and accrued benefits but could not interact with kids. This “program” cost the city some $800 million a year. Unable to end it fully, the city converted it into the Absent Teacher Reserve (ATR), which continued to pay teachers not to teach to the tune of $105 million a year. In 2019, 930 teachers held spots in the ATR—perhaps 25 of whom were there because of charges of misconduct—costing the city nearly $100 million in salaries and benefits.

    Within the confines of collective bargaining, public executives need to push for a recovery of management rights. Only then might school principals and police chiefs have a fighting chance of improving their organizations. Going further, states may want to revisit the extent to which work rules that establish disciplinary procedures should even be the subject of collective bargaining. Greater accountability in state and local government would be better for everyone, good teachers and cops included. Weeding out poor performers will improve public services, protect communities, boost organizational morale, and spur upward mobility. It’s time to put the mission of public agencies ahead of job protections for public workers.
    more at the link
     
    Andre0087 likes this.
  12. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    39,181
    Likes Received:
    20,334
    Unions of any kind put their interests above the people's. Let's look at the union called the GOP.
     
    FranchiseBlade likes this.
  13. Supermac34

    Supermac34 President, Von Wafer Fan Club

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,107
    Likes Received:
    2,455
    Except for a few hot spots, isn't violent crime (and crime in general) down significantly since the early 90s? SOMETHING has been working...to an extent.

    [​IMG]
     
    #273 Supermac34, Jun 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
  14. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,856
    Ziggy and FranchiseBlade like this.
  15. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,856
    Is that from the Reno 919 movie?

    Totally underrated show.
     
    B@ffled likes this.
  16. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    51,777
    Likes Received:
    20,431
    And the unions should do that. The owners of businesses and corporations put their interest above the public's and those of their workers. It is right and fair that unions put the interest of the workers first. Nobody else is going to.

    That being said our union works very hard to make sure changes are beneficial to the students and communities we serve.
     
  17. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,166
    Likes Received:
    48,318
    I agree. There are people on both sides who believe that this literally does mean getting rid of the PD.
     
    jiggyfly likes this.
  18. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,856
    I think this defund the cops slogan is a landmine for Democrats and needs to be recalibrated before the election and real policy solutions need to be talked about instead of this catchall phrase.

    I am seeing progressives going after Biden because he is not signing on to the defund movement,I can all ready see this being the new M4A.

    I hope this will not become a thing.

    I am still trying to educate myself on all of this.
     
  19. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    39,181
    Likes Received:
    20,334
    Biden should go with "Remake the Police" or something like that.

    or

    Reinvent Policing
     
    Amiga and rocketsjudoka like this.
  20. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,166
    Likes Received:
    48,318
    Pelosi has already told House Democrats to avoid using the terms "defund" and "disband". I think they are too loaded. Given the range of ideas I've seen just for Minneapolis there is a lot of confusion about what is meant by these and how far the city is actually going to move with defunding and disbanding.

    I think if Minneapolis is going to follow the Camden model something like "renovation" or "reconstitution" of PD might be more accurate.
     
    DaDakota and Amiga like this.

Share This Page