I say just cut him. Get him out of here. I'm tired of seeing the same five sentences in every post and the same excuses over and over again. I'm tired of debating it. I mean the very first day that trading is allowed again, trade the guy. But understand that after years of bashing him, you ain't getting an all-star for him. Maybe a couple of borderline players. When will people understand that SF is not an all-star. The definition of an all- star to me is someone that makes there team better, that has a high basketball IQ, and that plays with some level of efficiency. That SF is not. Get it straight, HE IS NOT AN ALL-STAR. What he is though is overrated.
Darius Miles is a premier athlete too. How many tickets was Stevie selling the last couple of years before Yao showed up Stevie's getting a little long in the tooth to be living on "potential". You seriously think it's just that he doesn't fit the Rocket system? He's a dumb player, athletic but dumb. He put up big numbers on crappy Rocket teams. Lots of guys can put up big numbers as the go to guy on crappy teams. What's he going to do for a contender? Screw them up that's what.
I am just enjoying many posts in this thread without wanting to put in my 2 cents. Now, I'm itching all over and here it is: 1. I never agreed with the "move Steve to the 2 and we'll be alright" theory. Midway through last season, I felt that IF (a big if) we were gonna get rid of one of our guards, it should be Steve, not Cat. This was not because Cat had better contribution, but because Steve, not Cat, was the key of our backcourt problems. That said, I was never convinced that we could get equal value in trading away Francis. So I never flat out advocated shipping him. Anyway, getting rid of the third one of "Dumb, Dumber, and Dumberer" earlier in the season was a start. Besides, I still had some hope that Steve could eventually "get it." 2. What can we get if we do trade Francis? If we insist on getting an equal caliber star, the list will be very short. Of course, we'd like to get guys like McGrady, or Kobe (no Iverson please!), but those are pipedreams. As I go through the top players of each team, my list is this, in no particular order: Brand, B. Davis, Boozer, Hinrich, Cassell, Kirilenko, Payton, Randolph, R. Wallace, J. O'Neal, Pierce, Carter, Nash, Gasol, Bibby, B. Miller, Allen. I am not saying these players are of equal value to each other. Obviously they are not. Rather, they are players I think can benefit us even if we trade Francis straight up for any of them. (I am ignoring the contract matchups.) But many of these players are considered "untouchable," or almost, by their respective teams. What I don't know is how the other coaches/GMs see Steve's value. If JVG's disappointment of Francis, as described by Doc Rocket, is well-known out there, then I think we won't get anything decent in return. 3. There is that question of whether we can win a title without having another "star" beside Yao, if we trade Francis for a "non-star" players. I think that's a legit issue. Upon further reflection, my conclusion is that getting "stars" is more about luck than about personnell maneuvering. Again, looking at all the stars players of each team, the only players that were "can't-miss stars" AT THE TIME THEY WERE ACQUIRED BY THE CURRENT TEAM are only a handful. Brand, James, Iverson, Marbury, McGrady, Stackhouse, Shaq, R. Wallace, Kidd, Webber, Allen, Duncan. Notice of these guys, only James, Iverson, and Duncan were acquired through draft as "can't-miss" choices. Even then, we can still say that they were lucky to have the #1 pick in those years. All other star players who were still on their original teams (e.g. Kobe, KG etc.) were not "sure bets" when they were drafted. Others, such as Nowitzki, weren't stars when they were acquired by their current teams. The point is, the majority of star players BECAME stars after they arrived at their teams. The teams who possess star players either had great foresight or just got lucky. I suspect luck was the major (but not the only) factor in most of the cases. If that is true, then we need to gamble a bit on young prospects if we can't get another star caliber player in return and hope that the youngster will become legit star in a year or two. Of course, in gambling, some win some lose. But if we deem the star we have on hand won't get us to the promise land, then a gamble is called for.
Originally posted by striker Darius Miles is a premier athlete too. Has he put up Stevie-like numbers? How many tickets was Stevie selling the last couple of years before Yao showed up One player cannot carry a team. If the team sucks, a 'ticket-seller' will only have a minimal impact. Stevie's getting a little long in the tooth to be living on "potential". You seriously think it's just that he doesn't fit the Rocket system? ... You missed the salient points. It has nothing to do with what I or your believe. It's what another back-office thinks they can accomplish w/ Stevie, with their coach and in their system. If everyone had the same player assessments, coaching styles and systems there never wouldn't be nearly as many trades. All you have to do is look at the history of NBA trades to understand the reality.
The fact that Steve played quite well (more pass, high FG%, controlled shot selection) in the JVG system for a few game and boom! reversed back to the old Steve, shows that he actually can learn and learnt. I am not sure he's completely sold for JVG's idea but he actually learn. Sometime when he shot well at the beginning of the game, he got carried away and stop being a PG. But we all saw that he can be an effecient PG in some games this season. He can learn and he did improved at 1. He just can not do it night in and night out, YET. Not being consistant is part of the transformation of his game. No big deal. After the forthcoming winning strike, everybody will be happy again.
As stated about, I don't think the problem with Steve is his basketball skill. I think it is mental, ego issue. From time to time, he wants to show the world that he's still the 1st option in the team and that's when the plays collaps. To be more consistant, he need to completely accept the fact the team will focus on Yao from now on. It's hard for Steve. He has the ability to play JVG's game as we saw in some GOOD games. But he has too much pride to play that kind of game every night. He will come through, I hope.
Great to see our former inside source and still great D.R. We all know that the turnovers and the headlong charges into the teeth of the defense and etc etc makes JVG crazy. So I don't doubt Steve will be traded. As far as getting value for him, never fear. There are other teams out there who would kill for him. Imagine Steve under the tutelage of Hubie Brown and/or The Logo. Remember how The Logo talked up Steve at the draft in 2002? Or trade Steve to Charlotte for one of the top draft picks and send that pick to another team, etc etc, because JVG doesn't like rooks. Then sign Brent Barry to play PG/SG.
Hey, DOC! Thanks for posting again ... we wondered if you had gone out with the Rudy contingent, since we hadn't heard from you for so long. Please post more often. You are valued around here. Have you heard anything regarding who the Rocket's MIGHT be interested in, if they decided to move Francis in the off-season, who they think WOULD fit, who they believe we COULD get in return, and which team they would LIKE to trade with? Have you heard anything about Brand, Allen, McGrady, top 3 picks for someone like Okafor? It seems to me that we'd need to trade Stevie for a PF, such as Brand, Chandler, top 3 pick to get Okafor, and then Cato for a PG, such as Hinrich, Barry or Snow. Is that their thinking? And, also, is there anyone they think doesn't fit, either, such as Cat or Taylor? It would seem if we traded Francis for a SG, such as Allen or McGrady, we would then have to move Cat for a PF. I know you vented about Steve, but we all would love some juicy tidbits for dreamcasting, when we get frustrated.
DavidS I didn’t mean he would “lead” the Rockets by being the star player. He isn’t even the star in Chicago. When I said he hasn’t even lead the Bulls anywhere in the weak east. I meant it by virtue of being the “floor general”. Basically, I think the Rockets can do better than Hinrich and if they can’t then they shouldn’t do a trade at all. I don’t want to be controversial I have been disappointed with Steve this year BIG TIME! But even in my displeasure I still think the Rockets can get more out of a team than Kirk H. If I’m the Bulls I’m laughing all the way to the bank, they have a Jordanesque type player to put butts in the seats. And Houston you the shaft!
NEWS FLASH! Hinrick is an out of control PG that is stinking it up this year just as much as Steve Francis but with better assist numbers.
And he's a rookie PG, that is also getting 6.7 apg with 2.6 TO per game. That's not stinking it up. True. His FG% is bad. But not his 3pt %.
I seriously doubt anyone here is suggesting trading Francis for Hinrich straight up. That's not a fair trade. More like, Francis/Cato for Hinrich/Robinson/ top 2 pick or Chandler.
Yes...a multi-player trade. Exactly. Soild point with an outside shot, decent to/ast ratio, PF that can hit an simple jumphook and play D, all supporting Yao. Then, there's always that Allen/Berry deal...next to Yao.
just wanted to comment on one thing. steve b****es like a mf, but dada you are dead wrong it's not even close to pau gasol. steve can atleast recognize when he's actually comitted a foul. if you look at his face pau hasn't commited one in 3 years.
DAMN, Spot on! I do see "Memphis' improvement as anything imcompatiable with winnig. Memphis is sourrounding their MAX contract star, Gasol, with as many good young players (and trade bait if they don't work out) as possible and let things develop. I wished we had done this philosophy instead of letting our two best potential young role players walk (KT/Posey). Agree, the difference is Memphis has Gasol, he is good, but Yao has another level of a ceiling as a star. This one fact--that we lucked into Yao even when they had a better chance--is what has kept the two franchises more competitive and perhaps given us a long term edge in hope. To me the Memphis and Sac perspective is similar. Get the best 9 guys or so you can and always look to be oppertunistic for undervalued players in bad situations (Bibby). As long as one of these good 8, 9 players emerges as just below MVP consideration level, and the rest know their roles, you just might have a have a shot at a ring. Now starting with a Yao Ming (potential future MVP written all over him) gets would all sorts of advantages and you don't have to be as perfect with the rest of his supporting cast. I don't see a general pattern here. Many teams from the past 25 years have had 3 or more stars, some two, and as few pointed out had 1 (Wash, Hou, SA, could put Detriot there). That seems like a pretty reasonable distribution to me. Further, some have come close without any true superstars in the last 15 years, Portland (3 times), Sacramento (the last 2 years). Further, I have a gut feeling (hunch) Detriot this year may give someone a run for their money too. So in general, yes, the more stars you have the better. However there isn't any thing magical about 2 stars versus 1 any more than 3 stars versus 2--it boils down to putting the best teams possible together. The one rule I will say tend to bit you is don't have any 1 starter sucky. The difference between an average starter well fit to his role is huge over a completely in over his head talent (Maloney). More than the star factor or lack of two star factor, teams with glaring holes in the balance of their floor almost never have a real shot at the title--just look at Jordan's bulls team where their PF spot was between Grant and Rodman. That more than anything about Jordan's individual performance level resulted in the Bulls failures. Agreed. In fact the Kings might just win this year without a legit MVP candidate. If the Kings play the Pistons the star theory will be blown out of the water. I think the way the Rockets team should be developed is you aquire as many good players as possible that reinforces Yao's game (Houston ring 1 approach, Sac's almost ring approach if you consider Webber that centerpiece). In the former Houston case we made a trade for a almost-star and turned him into a pure role player (OT) along with other mild aquisitions/trade (Smith, Max, Mario) and some solid mid to late 1st round picks (Horry/Cassell). So don't over pay attention to whether we have a ture 2nd star. Now if there is a chance to get one for something lesser (Clyde for the outstanding role player), do it, but don't feel you need to. Finally I think a lot of people on this board underestimate the value of Steve Francis (I see even worse for Iverson) because of negative aspects to his game. A lot of teams are not trying to build playoff contenders, they would be happy just to get out of the basement and have an explosive fun to whach leader with the brain farts and all. e.g., The Hawks, Bullls, Warriors, Clippers, Wizards, It would not surprise me one bit if he were moved to a free system like the teams above he would be the unquestioned 1st option and that he return to putting up 21-7-6. Yeah it would be on low 40s FG shooting and include close to four TOPG--but that is still a lot more than what those guys have. These teams would droll over gettting Francis despite his shortcummings more evident when other actual good offensive players are on the floor (a luxury those teams don't have). There are other teams, though perhaops not as desperate, I could see high interest as well--Suns, Blazers, Orlando, Phily (if they move Iverson they would be int he depserate class), Bucks, Celts, and Seattle. Finally, at the NBA level Francis is a heck lot more of a Winner than Eltan Brand (has the guy ever not been on a completely sucky team). That is because Brand is a very good all around PF but just isn't much of a dynamic offensive player like SF has been most of his career. Brand is the power caddy extrodinare and Francis is a John Daly. Since we have a future Tiger, I'll take the caddy, but John Daly can win a few and always entertain. Now would Francis alone be enough to land Brand--probably not on his year's performance, but probably close enough that a deal could be workable.
Stevie has become the grinning Rocket logo personified. As ROXTXIA had eluded to, this off season will not be typical because of Charlotte. The Bobs could use a flashy player that can fill seats on a team that has low expectations. Coupled with the fact about the luxury tax, Les could take on large salaries for him. Equal combined talent at a higher price maybe?
They didn't want role player money. They wanted more. I would definitely, definitely prefer having KT over any of our forwards because he works so hard, but Posey is another story. He's doing well in Memphis, but I don't think he would have done well here. I think he was too close in mentality to Steve and Cat to become a cerebral player that JVG would cherish as a role playing forward.
I am never a SF fan, but a Rockets fan and Yao fan, but ironically, I found myself defending Steve more and more lately. All of his shortcomings are cristal clear and repeated 1000 times on this board, so are his strengths. But I would like to point out one thing, that our two stars - Ming and Steve, are getting alone very very well. They actually like each other very much, you can see from their cheering, encouraging, and supporting each other. IMHO, Steve likes Ming much much more than Cat and MoT do. And Ming expressed many times how appreciative he's to Steve. Two all-stars in Lakers who can not get along brought them 3 rings, what about two all-stars in Rockets who actually likes each other? Maybe some of you might argue that they are not deserved all-stars, ok, then, why don't we give those 2 hallf-all-stars a chance? Yes, the system is very important, and their games do not harmonize very much, not yet. But it's a team sport and the relationship between your important players are even more important. Because it would be easier for them to put egos aside, and come together for winning games. Don't you see Steve is changing, and deferring his game to Ming more and more? Why do we have to break them now? To be honest, Dream led us to 2 Championships, but during MJ's absence. I am not downplaying Dream's excellence, in fact, I became a Rockets fan because of Dream, I never liked MJ's super ego. All I want to say is that Rockets is not a winning team every year, we should not be acting so spoiled. We have to be mroe realistic, that our team is not a perfect one, and not even a great one. But we do see improvement, especially during this year, with JVG and Ming's progress with the team, that's encouraging enough for me. I am quite troubled with all the negativity during or after each game. When we were down 6 in 4th quarter, the curse and blame in chat is just unbearable, the game was going on, and we certainly had the talent and chance to come back, we, so called fans, shouldn't we stand behind our team and give me support, show some faith and love? If you have chance to go to some of the European countries to watch some soccer games, especially those so-so 2nd or 3rd division games, you will realize what loyal fans are about. Their teams are mediocre or even crapy, and they never have a chance to go all the way, but for those fans, that is their team, they sing and cheer during the whole game. They don't curse their players and want to trade someone every single minute.
