What else are players suppose to say? Every player on every good team will say that. But let's be realistic...Van Gundy knows his team won't go to the finals. He's too smart, and he's too smart to trade Francis for a good but role-player type point guard - when he can get that at anytime. You can only trade Francis for a prospect coming into the league - and that would be too big of a risk. I mean, would you trade Francis for Bobby Jackson? Because that's what we'll get. Who else will take his salary? Francis isn't in that much demand. Van Gundy's best strategy is to give the kid a chance to make the transition.
I'm sure Clutch will reply...but let me say this... JVG and CD know what to do as far as trades are concerned. They'll weight the pros and cons in the off-season. And if they ever did a deal like "Francis for Bobby Jackson (not likely)," it would NOT be done so that Bobby becomes our 1st option. That type of deal would be done in order to free up money in order to bring in *other* talent. Like T-Mac, Lewis, Brand or Ray Allen. Someone else to supplement Bobby (and Yao). So don't think of it as one-for-one trade. It's about positioning money and personnel in order to build the best team. And that will take more than just "one trade." The PG "position" doesn't have to be the focal point, if we make a trade. The "star" might move to the SG "position." Or the PF "spot." That's why we could afford to put a "good role-playing PG" in the PG "position." As long as you have someone else take-up the INTENDED ROLE that Francis was supposed to do when he was drafted - the star player. It doesn't matter where that position ends up being the focal point -- well, except our center position! We already have a star player there.
Absolutely, it's been Shaq's team the whole way through, he's not even the best 2 in the league now, Mcgrady is. Neither of them are proven winners either as good as they are, LA's not very good when Shaq is out.
What else are players suppose to say? Every player on every good team will say that Forget what Jim Jackson said, how about what Van Gundy said? Does he have any problem expressing what he thinks? Does he pull any punches. He's said from day 1 that the only goal was to get closer to a championship. But let's be realistic...Van Gundy knows his team won't go to the finals Saying that you're trying to win a championship doesn't mean that you have to do it this year. If Van Gundy realizes that Francis isn't a good fit long term and that we'd be better off with other players, then he's still trying to build a championship team. It's not a one year process. . . He's too smart, and he's too smart to trade Francis for a good but role-player type point guard - when he can get that at anytime. You can only trade Francis for a prospect coming into the league - and that would be too big of a risk. I mean, would you trade Francis for Bobby Jackson? Because that's what we'll get. Who else will take his salary? Who's saying that you only trade Francis for only a role-playing type of point guard? The trade threads that I've seen suggest trading him for a PG and a Rashard Lewis or a Ray Allen. How do you figure that you can only trade Francis for a prospect coming into the league? First of all, the only way that you could trade Francis for a player coming into the league would be if the team we trade with had $11M in cap space. More likely, you'll have to take salary back in return (drafted players count $0 in a trade). Heck, let the Clips win the lottery and trade us the rights to Emika for Francis. We'll get a great big man and we'd also get an $11M trade exception. That would be sweet. On one hand you're telling us how good Francis is and on the other your saying that the most we could get for him is Bobby Jackson? Seems to be a bit of a contradiction. Who will take his salary? If Francis is as good as you say, then teams should be lining up to acquire him. The Knicks took on Marbury's max deal along with two other bad contracts totally a $123M just to get Marbury. How much did the Heat just pay Lamar Odom? Abdur-Rahim makes $2M more per year than Francis and he just got traded. Antonio McDyess makes $2M more and he got traded. Jalen Rose makes $2M more and he got traded. Antonio Davis makes $1.9M more and he got traded. Antoine Walker makes $1.5M more and he got traded. Van Excel makes $1M more and he got traded. Keith Van Horn makes $2M more than Francis and he gets traded every couple of months. So why not Francis? If Francis' trade value is as low as you suggest, then that should tell you something right there. Francis isn't in that much demand. Care to explain why Francis isn't in that much demand? Trust me, the Rockets won't just give Francis away. They'll have to get a good deal or they won't trade him. My question to you is "IF the Rockets can get good value (a Rashard Lewis or Ray Allen) back for Francis then are you for a deal? Seems that you have a very low opinion of Francis' value around the league, so if we could acquire a player or players like that, then I'd have to think you'd consider that a pretty good deal.
NewYorker: I really don't think you and other Francis backers understand the situation. You talk about adjusting but what is their to adjust? It's not like the guy is selfish or anything. It's not like Yao Ming adjusting to physical contact. It's not like Michael Jordan adjusting to his lost athleticism. There's nothing to adjust. His problem isn't adjusting. You either know how to pass a basketball or you don't. You either know how to be a point guard or you don't. It's as simple as that. Those are things that don't change. Steve Francis plain and simple is not an NBA point guard. If you want to make the argument for playing him at the '2', that's a whole different can of worms, but for this argument's sake, he cannot 'adjust' to the 1.
I'll add to thecabbage's point: Alot of people are saying that Francis can improve and become a good PG. Those were reasonable statements when we were all making them in his first or 2nd year. But this is his 5th year and he really hasn't improved in those areas. In fact, in some areas he's regressed. He's a veteran player now, not a new kid learning the league. How long are we suppose to give him? It's been almost 5 full seasons and in Steve's own words "I'll play like I want to play".
Closer to a championship yes, and they have done that. Going from a lottery team to a playoff team that competes well with other teams in the division/conference in one year is progress toward becoming a championship team. I'm not sure why you're telling me it takes more then one year to make a champ, that's what I am trying to tell these guys. You haven't read my post very well. Alright, why would Seattle trade Rashard Lewis and a point guard for Francis? Seattle had Gary Payton for years and look what it brought them... What I want to know though, if you trade Francis for a Ray Allen then do you trade Mobley for a mediocre point guard? Do you think that's enough? I think Francis value is at a low point because he's struggling right now - and in basketball it's so easy to dump a winner for a couple of losers and end up looking like a tool. Francis is still developing and his game is clearly evolving - not because of JVG, but because of Yao Ming. Francis wants to be a star, but he also wants an NBA championship. I think when you have a player as talented and hard-working as Francis, you want to give them every chance - players like him don't come around often, and if anyone can transform their game around Ming, it's Francis - not Brent Barry, and not a Ray Allen or Rashard Lewis. I say Francis still has next year to prove he's the right fit for the Rockets. He was the centerpiece before Yao came, and Yao has taken that away from him - but you have to give Francis time to adjust and transform his game.
I just think Francis is something special...and there are some players who take a bit longer to get there then others. Anyway, I don't think Francis will be traded anytime soon - so it's a moot point. We'll see what happens
I'm not sure why you're telling me it takes more then one year to make a champ, that's what I am trying to tell these guys Maybe because you said "But let's be realistic...Van Gundy knows his team won't go to the finals.". I'm assuming that your saying that no matter who we trade Francis for, we won't go to the finals next year. Based on that, my point was that Van Gundy is only interested in building a championship team and the fact that we wouldn't go to the finals next year wouldn't matter if it got us closer to being what he considers a championship calibur team. Alright, why would Seattle trade Rashard Lewis and a point guard for Francis? Seattle had Gary Payton for years and look what it brought them... I don't know...maybe because it might sell tickets? Maybe because Radmonovic could move back to his natural position? So, your saying that since Seattle had Gary Payton for years and they never won, that they'll never trade for another top all-star PG? Does that also mean that Utah will never trade for another all-star PG or PF? The Knicks will never trade for another all-star center? Phoenix will never trade for another star PF? So, what exactly are you arguing? Are you saying that we shouldn't trade Francis or are you saying that you don't think that we can get anything for him? What I want to know though, if you trade Francis for a Ray Allen then do you trade Mobley for a mediocre point guard? Do you think that's enough? Well, you certainly do need another PG, but it would all depend on what you got for Francis and what you can get on the FA market or by using our trade exception. Can you package Mobley and Cato for a PG? It's kind of hard to say what we'd do unless you know what the Francis trade was and what else was available. Worst case, I'd have to believe that we'd have a pretty good chance to sign Barry to mid level deal if we couldn't do any better. So, I guess the answer is no, we probably wouldn't trade Mobley for a mediocre PG. if anyone can transform their game around Ming, it's Francis - not Brent Barry, and not a Ray Allen or Rashard Lewis. Ahh...but that is the point...those guys don't have to transform their game to play with Yao. They are already shooters.
It could be! But I would first look to trade Francis for Allen and then go after Brent Barry with the MLE. Then ask Mobley to be our 6th man. If he balks then I would probably try to move him, but would TRY to make it work initially. I think you could also use Mobley and Allen in the backcourt at times, as Allen is a very good passer, and if JJ is in the game at the 3 that is another good passer on the team. I dont think this team needs a superstar PG per se. But even if you said we did, Francis is not delivering as a superstar PG or else we wouldnt have this conversation. Francis is playing like a mediocre PG, the same one you were questioning would be enough. I say parlay Francis into Ray Allen. You would get fair value there and at the same time have one of the best SGs in the league and one of the best shooters. Seriously, Ray Allen paired with Yao Ming? I mean if Allen can shoot 40% in 3ptrs without a low post player to create space, imagine what he could do where with Yao Ming in the post? Then perhaps add a Brent Barry? I am salavating! I dont see it. The reason I dont see it is Francis' skillset just doesnt mesh with Yao's. That is the problem. JVG has said MANY times that this team needs shooters around them. You add in one of the BEST shooters in the NBA in Ray Allen around him and watch us go to work. Then you add in a Brent Barry who also is a top notch shooter and see this team play even better! Their games PERFECTLY fit with Yao's, no adjustment necessary. Additionally, because their jump shots are so good, they will be more productive later on in their career. I am not sure we have the luxury to wait. This year was the trial year. The longer they wait, the LOWER Francis trade value will get. Look what they did with Eddie Griffin? We could have had SAR or Rashard Lewis for him but we waited, and waited, and waited, and then got bubkis! The team understands that Yao Ming is the focus and we have to build around him. The key now is to get players that FIT the team and work WITH Yao Ming. Shooters, good passers, smart players.
Do you think that because of his all-star game appearances or something else? There really is something "special" about a player who is finally (more than likely) going to make the playoffs in his fifth season in the league. Obviously, you didn't read the Doc Rocket thread... thacabbage, michecon, and others said it best - Steve Francis does not fit in the offense we are running now. Yao is not going anywhere, Van Gundy is not going anywhere. This leaves a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. Why continue to beat your head against a wall in hoping that Francis "gets it" when you can trade him for some value that does "get it"? Are GMs not allowed to trade people anymore? I thought that was a major way of making your team better, but listening to some people around here, all it does is make you a basher or "grumpy" or some other stupid nonsense.
I disagree that 22 and 10 for a month of a season makes someone an elite player. Lorenzen Wright has averaged 20 and 10 for a couple of months at the center position and Memphis still sucked. As a matter of fact, Abdur Rahim has averaged 20 and 10 for years and I don't see teams thinking they will become champiomship contenders by surrounding him with shooters. Much has been made about the flaws of the guards, but not much has thought has been given to the fact that teams are starting to scout Yao. They know you can muscle up on him. Also, all you have to do is leab on him, and as soon as anyone releases a pass to him, just step away. You will get a steal and Yao will be sprawling on the floor. Also, Yao may score points, but the truly dominant big men do double damage because they foul out your front line which hurst your rebounding and inside scoring. Because Yao is basically a finesse player, he may score, but rarely gets your big people in foul trouble. At this point, I'm all for trading Steve, because it's just a poison situation between him and Houston fans. Heck, he may even demand a trade in the off-season. I just think it's WAY to early to determine that Yao will be good enough to lead the team to a championship just by surrounding him with shooters. He's being GIVEN a lot and hasn't really earned it. I say when Yao has averaged 24/13/4 for a whole season then we'll talk. Until then, he's a 17 and 9 guy that had a good month. Period. And not someone who has earned having a franchise built around him. Also, this season has driven down Steve's value tremendously. Teams know that Van Gundy wants him gone. So no one is going to give up a superstar for him. You're going to have to take back a collection of marginal talent for him like in the Scottie Pippen trade. Some team will give you two or three bench guys and maybe a marginal starter. That's it.
You guys may have a point here - no pun intended. If we could get Ray Allen straight up for Francis, and get Barry for the MLE (is that realistic?), combined with a big front court, a blossoming superstar big man, and a solid player like jim jackson - with scorers like MoT and Mobley coming off the bench....well, that does sounds like a pretty good team. I still have some faith in Francis. I mean, when he is good he is awesome, and yes he is inconsistent, but I think I want to see how he does in the playoffs before passing final judgement. He still has the rest of the season to make the adjustment, and until then let's hope he does. Just remember, Jason Williams was able to cut his turnovers from the 2.5-3 level to 1.8 this year...and it took him *years* to do it. And point guards don't need to be great shooters to be effective - just look at Jason Kidd. Let's see what Francis can do in the last 15-20 games of this season (including playoffs).
A) I think his point was that he is now putting up elite player numbers at a weak position; not that doing it for a month makes him an elite player, just that for that month he's had an elite player's effect on his team. B) SAR would clearly be seen as an elite player were it not for his ( almost incredible) nightly melting act in crunchtime. Many an NBA analyst has conceded this point. C) There is a difference between 22/10 and 20/10/. Same difference as between 18/10 and 20/10. D) I did a statistical study that showed that Yao gets fouled an a per minute or fga basis as much as the likes of Hakeem, Moses etc. He just doesn't put up as many minutes...yet.
I think people get too caught up in numbers without looking at the context of the game. A guy like Lorenzen Wright may get 20 by cleaning up around the basket or being the beneficiary of some good passes. Then you take a guy like Yao is scoring against double and triple teams, even sometimes triple teamed before even touching the ball! He may score just as much but his impact is infinite. Defenses are so focused in on not only keeping him from shooting the ball but even *touching* the ball, that this opens up a plethora of opportunities for teammates. This is why it's so critical that the Rockets surround Yao with a proper supporting cast that can take advantage and make teams pay. It would start with adding some smart, good shooting players and a power forward with 'any' offensive capability. You definitely have a point here and this is a serious cause for concern. However, Yao is only in his 2nd year. He came into the league with an extremely underdeveloped upper body. I would liken his learning curve to that of a Jermaine O'Neal or Kevin Garnett. I think he just needs time to gain some strength as strength is one of those things that can easily be improved upon. It's not like passing or court sense that you can't develop - intangibles that Yao already posesses in this infancy stage of his development. I'll assume you're joking. On Yao, if you feel that way, I think that's fair enough. He's the best player on a playoff team in his 2nd year, and historically talented centers have had success in this league. Even if you think Yao isn't good enough, what is the reason for keeping Francis? It's not like he's picked up the slack this year when Yao has struggled. Tim Duncan didn't average those numbers until his 3rd year (23.2 and 12.4) and Kevin Garnett his 8th (17 and 8). These are arguably the two best players in the NBA today. As I said earlier, I liken Yao's development to that of Kevin Garnett in that he came into the league inexperienced with the physicality of American basketball. Ironically Garnett averaged the same numbers (17ppg and 8rpg) in his 2nd year as Yao does and led his team to the playoffs. Another player who's learning curve Yao's can be compared to is Dirk Nowitzki, another foreigner. While he does the majority of his damage from the perimeter, he had to adjust to the physical demands of being an NBA big man. Let's take a look at the numbers: Garnett: 10, 17.0, 18.5, 20.8, 22.9, 21.2, 23.0, 24.5 Nowitzki: 8.2, 17.5, 21.8, 23.4, 25.1, 21.4 Yao Ming: 13.5, 17.5 I expect Yao to follow along the same trend as these two superstars. Furthermore, as I said earlier, there is much more to Yao's 17 and 9. There are the myriad of open looks Jim Jackson and Cuttino Mobley have gotten simply due to his presence and on and on. If you think his value is already so low then are you willing to risk holding onto him and having his value plummet even more? I have seen no indication that Steve will be overcoming his weaknesses any time soon.
You are right... You know what? I've seen this viewpoint used for the last two years: Pro-Francis backers that don't want to trade him for a "good" PG because they think he's worth more. Example...Anti-Francis poster brings up Bobby Jackson, Bibby, Nash, or Hinrich for trade...and then a Pro-Francis fans say, "That wouldn't be a fair trade. We are losing more than we are getting." But guess what? There seems to be a misconception about how "good" Francis really is. As someone said earlier...ask any kid what he thinks of Francis and you'll get gleaming approval on his game. Of course all they see is his *fantastic dunks* and *spetacular leaping ablity.* But they completly overlook the turnovers, average shooting, and sub-par court vision. That's a what die-hard-Francis fan seems to see. So, what do you think Team Scouts, GMs, and coaches see? Well, I secretly *hoped* that GMs would think of Francis the same way that a kid would. You know? An 2nd Time All-Star, believe in that "21/6/6 Oscar/Jordan/Kobe mumbo-jumbo stat", get wowed by the *fantastic dunks* and *spetacular leaping ablity* and just hand over a player like Tracy McGrady! Then I came back to reality. The *fantastic dunks* and *spectacular leaping ability* is a facade. It deceives pro-Francis fans into thinking that he's *better* than he really is. And because they are deceived, they end up bringing a skewed perception of his over-all worth, i.e. we must get *more* than just Bobby Jackson or Kirk Hinrich. Could it be that the *fantastic dunks* and *spectacular leaping ability* are worth a lot more to PRO-Francis fans than to the ones that want Francis traded? It seems so. I'm sure there are some Owners that would want a "Francis type player" for ticket sales ONLY. But, I doubt that a GM/Coach would want a deal like that unless it would improve his team's chances of building a title contender. And with Francis as their #1 option, I think you can forget about a chance of a title. Hey! Maybe we can get lucky and find a Team Owner that wants a player that is used *just* to boost ticket sales! I pity the fans of that team after 3 years... Pissst...the Allen, Berry, Sheed deal is looking better and better!
