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ABC Poll: Iraqis ambivalent about war, but not result.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Mar 16, 2004.

  1. basso

    basso Member
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    this poll belies much of the steady drumbeat of news out of iraq about how badly things are going. yes, there are still problems, but we're on the right track.

    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html

    --
    A year after the bombs began to fall, Iraqis express ambivalence about the U.S.-led invasion of their country, but not about its effect: Most say their lives are going well and have improved since before the war, and expectations for the future are very high.

    Worries exist — locally about joblessness, nationally about security — boosting desires for a "single strong leader," at least in the short term. Yet the first media-sponsored national public opinion poll in Iraq also finds a strikingly optimistic people, expressing growing interest in politics, broad rejection of political violence, rising trust in the Iraqi police and army and preference for an inclusive and democratic government. . . .

    On a personal level, seven in 10 Iraqis say things overall are going well for them — a result that might surprise outsiders imagining the worst of life in Iraq today. Fifty-six percent say their lives are better now than before the war, compared with 19 percent who say things are worse (23 percent, the same). And the level of personal optimism is extraordinary: Seventy-one percent expect their lives to improve over the next year. . . .

    Iraqis divide in their rating of the local security situation now, but strikingly, 54 percent say security where they live is better now than it was before the war.
     
  2. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    There's good info in this poll... info that will surely find its way to both sides of our politics. I can hear the Sunday shows already...

    GOP: "The poll shows Bush's plan is working."

    Dem: "On the contrary, the poll indicates Bush's plan is not working."

    What's interesting to me is the breakdown between ethnic groups in the poll. For instance, here's a paragraph from the story:

    There are huge differences in these and many other questions between Arab Iraqis, who account for 79 percent of the population, and the Kurdish minority (17 percent). Forty percent of Arabs say it was right for the United States to invade; that soars to 87 percent of Kurds. Just one-third of Arabs say the war liberated rather than humiliated Iraq; it's 82 percent of Kurds. Thirty percent of Arabs support the presence of coalition forces, again compared with 82 percent of Kurds. Positive views of the invasion also are held disproportionately in the south of the country, as well as in the Kurdish north.

    It doesn't really go into the differences between the Arab Iraqis, which is probably where the real story lies...
     
  3. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    Sounds promising.

    Beginning to sound a little more like the outcome may be more like post-war Europe (as where the early criticisms).
     
  4. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    basso;

    I saw the report on it on ABC News yesterday and you're forgetting that the poll also shows a majority of Iraqis don't support the occupation and they are evenly split on the question on if the US is helping them or humiliating them.
     
  5. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    Arab Iraqis are divided into Shiite and Sunnis so I'm guessing most of those favorable views are in the Shiite. From watching the ABC news report the predominant attitude among Shiites is
    Thank you for getting rid of Saddam now get the hell out of here.
     
  6. Nolen

    Nolen Member

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    basso- thanks so much for posting this, it made my day. I'm so happy to read this.

    Some of the statistics are stunning to me- especially the hope these people have for the future! Statistics on how Iraquis think life will be for them in a year is overwhelmingly positive. Wow. It remains to be seen how expectations will be met, but I'm so happy that the nation has hope, that means so much.

    I was also really surprised to see that in every region Iraquis find their situation to be the same or better now than a year ago. Even security! That blew me away. Regarding their security now as compared to pre-war, %54 think it's better, %18 the same and %26 worse. Wow. It's hard to imagine what with all these suicide bombings and firefights that so many Iraquis feel safer or as safe as a year ago. There has to be some disparity in the regional breakdown- how do people within Baghdad and the "Sunni Triangle" feel?

    And best of all- only %21 want an Islamic stae vs. %49 democracy for their preferred political system! Yes! In another question, only %10 want a government of religious leaders vs. a single strong leader or a democracy. This statistic gives me a lot of hope. The religious leaders of Iraq and their followers make a lot of noise and take a lot of headlines, but they are by no means a majority. Let's hope that quiet majority gets out and votes when it counts.

    Everybody, let's pray for a safe, secure Iraq, governed by a secular democracy. I can still pray for GWB to be out of office and want what's best for the Iraqi people.
     
  7. basso

    basso Member
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    the reaction of the arabs is not surprising. given their culture it's perfectly natural they would feel both humiliated and hopeful. even given the snapshot nature of all polls, and the difficulty of polling in a war-torn country, this is still an extremely encouraging sign.
     
  8. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    Exactly Right!
     
  9. Woofer

    Woofer Member

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    I read the complete polling results, and the attitude in it are approximately those held before the war. The Kurds love us, the Shiites in south appreciate us for finally making up for sacrificing the thousands of Shiites to Saddam in 91, and the other Arabs hate us.
     
  10. ckahlich001

    ckahlich001 Member

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    why didnt they survey the al qaeda population in iraq? ;)
     
  11. basso

    basso Member
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    and here's some generally upbeat info on the Iraqi economy:

    http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story.asp?StoryId=CqfAj0eicvvnjuKfrluvdt05ptvK

    --
    Iraqi business begins to boom
    Knight Ridder - Knight Ridder - Tuesday, March 16, 2004
    By Ken Dilanian

    BAGHDAD, Iraq _ Pepsi is rebuilding its old bottling plant. Mitsubishi is planning a new car dealership. A Kuwaiti firm envisions a $500 million hotel and shopping complex in the heart of Baghdad.

    Nearly a year after bombs, tanks and looters wrought devastation on Iraq's already awful economy, the country is teeming with commerce, real and anticipated. Stores are filled with new products, foreign investors are circling, and unemployment _ while painfully high _ has fallen by half.

    "It may not be palpable, but Iraq is booming," said Maria Khoury, chief of research for Atlas Investment Group, a Jordanian investment bank. "We're seeing a big increase in consumer goods flowing into the country."

    Though still very low, Iraqi living standards are higher than at any time since the 1990 Gulf War, economists say, despite the ongoing bombings and killings. Oil revenues, which fund the government and its social safety net, are near prewar levels. The World Bank estimates that the economy will grow by 30 percent this year, after shrinking last year.

    Like most things in Iraq, however, the economic picture is mixed. The economy remains marred by underlying problems, even leaving aside the security threat, which remains the biggest impediment to progress.

    After years of wars, sanctions and mismanagement, Iraq's gross domestic product hovers at $1,000 per person, according to the 2004 Iraq budget _ about the same as North Korea's and Mozambique's. That means most people are living hand to mouth with few luxuries.

    Unemployment has dropped, but from a high of 60 percent to a still-whopping 28 percent, according to the planning ministry.

    Underemployment is chronic. Iraq may have the world's best-educated taxi drivers and waiters.

    "All I want is a job in my field," said Musadeq Mohammed, 28, a chemical engineer who earns $200 a month working 10-hour shifts, seven days a week waiting tables at Baghdad's popular Saj al Reef restaurant.

    The consumer boom, while real, is the province of a relatively tiny elite. Iraqis who earn the typical wages of $150 per month aren't buying the 36-inch televisions and $20 boxes of Swiss chocolates found in Baghdad's Karada neighborhood.

    Glistening new storefronts selling newly available mobile phone service have sprouted around Baghdad, but there are only about 300,000 wireless phones in use in a country of 25 million people, according to the Coalition Provisional Authority's figures. Mohammed, for one, can't afford the $200 upfront cost.

    On Wednesday, the Pentagon finally awarded the first contracts in its $18.6 billion, U.S.-funded reconstruction program, which officials say should create hundreds of thousands of jobs for locals. The spending will fix sewage treatment plants, bridges and all manner of broken infrastructure.

    But a culture clash has stymied some of the coalition's more aggressive plans for economic revival. After decades of living in a top-down, state-controlled economy that squashed individual initiative, many Iraqis are uncomfortable with free-market capitalism.

    "For 35 years, (Saddam Hussein) killed the ambitions of the Iraqis," said Walid K. Issa Taha, the general manager of the Eastern Company for Commercial Agencies, which represents foreign investors. "They are used to getting salaries at the end of the month without any hard work."

    The majority of Iraq's 200-odd state-owned factories are white elephants full of outdated equipment. Still, in the fall, the coalition had to abandon its notion of rapidly privatizing those enterprises after heated opposition from Iraq's Governing Council.

    Iraqi politicians argued that the beleaguered populace couldn't stomach the inevitable job losses. But those factories, which employ around 500,000, can't compete with the imports flowing from Syria, Jordan and Iran, and they're bloated with redundant workers who are being paid from oil revenues.

    But firing workers in a country where unsolved murders occur almost daily presents a special challenge.

    "I have 30 percent more employees than I need, but I cannot get rid of them," said Salam Abd Ali, the general manager of the State Company of Leather Industries. "If I do, it could mean a death sentence for me and my family."

    The same problems bedevil Iraq's government ministries, in which there are 1.1 million employees, many with little to do.

    In early March, a protest by Health Ministry bureaucrats turned into what police described as a riot. The bureaucrats were furious over a plan to make some of them work as security guards at Iraq's dismal, chaotic hospitals, where doctors are routinely threatened.

    The Governing Council has also resisted getting rid of a government-funded food ration system, under which the government buys food in bulk, mainly from foreign companies. The policy discourages farming and local food production. Economists say it would be far better to hand out cash assistance, but polls show Iraqis prefer to get the food.

    Coalition economists also lament the failure to cut off gasoline subsidies, which allow Iraqis to fill their tanks for pennies. The artificially low prices create scarcity, resulting in long lines at government filling stations and big profits for black marketeers.

    Yet the coalition authority can boast of notable successes that U.S. officials argue have laid the groundwork for Iraq's prosperity.

    The most important one may have been the changeover last September to new paper money, minus Saddam's portrait. While many postwar countries suffer from hyperinflation and currency devaluation, the Iraqi dinar has gained value against the dollar since last fall.

    "Iraqis would not be placing their savings in this currency and buying more of it if they didn't believe in its future," said Olin Wethington, a top coalition economic adviser.

    The Coalition Provisional Authority and the Governing Council also passed a new investment law allowing 100 percent foreign ownership in most sectors. It's a rarity in the Arab world, where most countries have local partner requirements that enrich insiders while impeding business.

    Last month, three foreign banks were granted licenses to open branches. Coalition officials also have helped write a commercial banking law and a central banking law, and they're working on reopening the Baghdad Stock Exchange.

    With American help, the Labor Ministry has set up training centers where Iraqis are taking classes in English and computers, essential skills for employers.

    Worried about bombings and assassinations, foreign companies are coming in mainly through local partners. But they are coming.

    After watching hundreds of thousands of cars imported into Iraq each month since the war, Mitsubishi Motors announced in January that it would open a Baghdad dealership within two years and has already picked a site.

    Because of the Gulf War and the subsequent sanctions, Pepsi had to leave Iraq in 1991 after 40 years in the country. A Baghdad distributor kept the main bottling plant going, making bootlegged products with the Pepsi name. In January, Pepsi announced a deal with that company to rebuild the factory and begin selling the real thing by June. The plant will employ up to 2,000 workers.

    Then there's the Sultan Center, which operates some of Kuwait City's biggest malls. That firm is answering a request for proposals by Iraq's trade ministry seeking plans for a shimmering hotel and shopping complex, complete with a modern cinema, in Baghdad's al Monsour neighborhood.

    "We think this can be open in two years," said Muthunna Darwish, the Sultan Center's Iraqi-born company representative, who is betting security will be much improved by then. "We see huge potential here."
     
  12. glynch

    glynch Member

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    It is good to see that after all the years of suffering under Sadam and the hundreds of thousands of deaths of innocents due to US wars, bombings, blockades, spent uranium, needless destruction of sewers. water and power systems that the spirit of the Iraqi people has not been broken.

    It's great to know that conservatives feel that we should spend Hundreds of Billions and hundred of lives of working class Americans due to public opinion polls taken in foreign countries.

    Usually conservatives pride themselves in going against 90% pluralities in countries like Turkey, Spain, France and others and use this as a test of true American patriotism. Anyone who cites those foreign polls is viewed as an America Hater.

    Can someone explain how this poll justifies, the deceptions, deaths and hundreds of billions spent?

    The polls also says "thank, now get out". Do those who are pleased with Bush's war accept this, too?
     
  13. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    Those aren't mutually exclusive since I doubt Kerry will do anything different in Iraq.
     
  14. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
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    its not justifying anything. it just says that people's lives are getting better and they are becoming more optimistic.
     
  15. Nolen

    Nolen Member

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    Bingo. Good Christ glynch, you're getting upset over a report that confirms that the Iraqui people think they're better off than they were pre-war and are looking forward to even better times. That's wonderful news! Step outside of your bias for a moment so you can enjoy good news when it comes your way.

    It doesn't change the bad news into good news. It doesn't change the fact that we were lied to by this administration and that this war was initiated in a horrible manner and with poor planning for post-war scenarios. It doesn't justify what was done or how it was done.

    This wonderful news doesn't change the fact that I'm sad and pissed off every time I see that another soldier or innocent civilian has been killed by the resistance. It doesn't change the fact that I think getting GWB out of office is terribly important to the future of our country. I can recognize good news for what it is.

    Reactions like the one you posted above confirm people's genralizations of liberals being terribly cynical and negative and speaking only of everything that's going wrong.
     
  16. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Nolen, cut the crap. I said I was glad for the Iraqi people.

    Basso offered this as a defense of the war.

    I'm still upset that we needlessly killed a few hundred thousand Iraqis during a 13 year period. Maybe you aren't.

    Spin my remarks like TJ or Basso, if you want, but don't do it because you supposedly care about the image of liberalism.
     
  17. basso

    basso Member
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    nope, i just offered it up- the negative spin is yours. hard to imagine you could be so ungracious.
     
  18. glynch

    glynch Member

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    nope, i just offered it up- the negative spin is yours. hard to imagine you could be so ungracious.

    Yeah, right.:)
     

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