First of all I want give my condolences to the people of Spain in this tragedy. I don't exactlly know what's going to make an intelligent comment, but I'll do it anyway. There are talks that Al-Quida is involved. Some people in Spain and throughout the world are blaming the Spanish govenment. If it is Al-Quida why is it that they are not blamed, but Spain for supporting the U.S. It just seems to me that we're forgetting who actually killed those people. Please discuss.
People are mad at the government because the Iraq war, which the Spanish overwhelmingly opposed, made Spain into a prime target for terrorism. Most countries don't approach things like the US, it's not like Spain can send an armada to invade Afghanistan if it gets attacked by terrorists. Many spaniards would probably say "but for the gov'ts stance on the Iraq war, which we opposed, this wouldn't have happened" Compounding things was that , the government kept pointing the finger at ETA in order to deflect blame for Iraq and making spain a target because of the elections today. I suspect that is the last mistake the Aznar government will ever make....
I am completely fascinated by this turn of events. The PP was set to take a comfortable victory today, but it stupidly and stubbornly insisted that the bombings were the work of the ETA in the face of copious evidence to the contrary. The Spanish citizenry wisely seems to have decided that they do not care to be taken for fools, and it indicates that it does not appreciate the PP's using the instance of terror for political expediency. Will the Americans take a lesson from this episode?
why spainards are very upset with their government. spain was one of U.S. biggest allies in the war on iraq. 90% of the spainards were against the war. currently 99% of spaniards think al-qaeda is responsible for bombings due to all the obvious factors: 1. al-qaeda's admission by email 2. al-qaeda's admission by video tape 3. al-qaeda's threat on U.S. iraq war allies and Spain was one of the biggest 4. al-qaeda's hits with bombs, sequenced attacks. 5. al-qaeda's attacks citizens. ETA attacks politcal figures exclusively. 6. van with detonators and koranic scriptures hint to muslim-extremist terrorists. -bush lied to the US about WMD in Iraq. -the Iraq war was a diversion to the true hunt for terrorists -no link between saddam and al-qaeda -no al-qaeda in iraq..only after war did they show up to get some on the sitting duck troops -Bush has failed the world and the US with his weak attack on terrorism as proven by the train bombings. Iraq was a diversion. 550+ U.S. lives $150+ billion dollars should have been intensified in the direction of Osama, not on as Dean stated this morning "ousting an pathetic impotent old man" no one in the region was afraid of Saddam invading. he had no weapons and no link with al-qaeda to get them weapons. Spainards are pissed at their govt. cause 90% were against the war and yet the govt backed The Bush Admin. and now Spain is the victim of terrorism. Al-Qaeda is alive and well. Osama is in control and untouchable. + Iraq War was a total disaster. WMDs will never be found and we will all soon learn that Bush lied to us all. __________________________________= Bush gets F- on war against terrorism and post 9/11 policy
I believe if the majority of people in a country oppose something...then the majority's will should be done. Isn't that what democracy is all about? If Spain didn't want to ally with the US and go to war with Iraq based on the majority of their people's stance, then they should not of. The problem with democracy is you get to elect those who serve in office and they make the decisions...right or wrong. The government will go against the will of the people if they think it is the right thing to do based on intel, etc. . Bush did the same thing although our country was split about the war. A majority of Americans would have opposed the war had Bush not blatantly hyped and distorted the intel. They were so far off in their intel about Iraq it wasn't even funny. I'm sure the intelligence agencies carry a great deal of the burden on the Iraqi intel but it was all involved who did not filter out the bad intel while only keeping the good, verifiable intel. For example, they stupidly believed the word of ex-Iraqis who had a very deep interest in doing anything they could to rid Iraq of Saddam for their own benefit. They didn't have multiple, verifiable sources with the same intel they chose to feed the American public. So, it made and makes Bush look like a total idiot and he's trying to save face now. It's for that reason alone Bush should not be re-elected. I don't care who was to blame for the intel failure...the buck stops with the president. The simple fact is he spinned the need for the war a completely different way after the fact. So, on the contrary of an actual necessity to defeat terrorism, it actually fueled the ranks and created new backlash. However, it is perfectly clear that while we try to fight a moral war...the terrorists have no morality when it comes to fighting wars. They blow up innocent civilians just because they can. They don't target the leadership of governments who actually make the decisions. They target the people who are not involved just because their in the country of the list of countries they dislike or hold accountable. They pit that all the people they target are against Islam even though it's not true. They kill their own people in the process without batting an eyelash. Death is what they stand for. They want a total Islamic world where they carry power and rule people under their laws based on their interpretation of the Koran...just like Afghanistan was before we responded there to 9/11. They seem to think that Muslims can do whatever they want in the world in the face of other religions and other peoples while not facing accountability. They claim what were doing in Afghanistan is a crime yet 9/11 was an act of God and positive. It's ridiculous how the terrorists operate. That's why there is no place for people like that in this world. However, they will always be around because, from their vantage point, if we defeat terrorism we defeat Islam. Any Islam with any tolerance of Western views is not Islam to them. Democracy has no place in Islam from their vantage point. I am sickened by what happened in Spain and they have my condolences. It tears at my inner soul. I know that something equal or worse is going to be attempted in the US...probably around our election time. I'm sure terrorists don't want Bush re-elected. I don't feel we will be able to stop what is coming because there's just too many holes to take advantage of in our country of freedom. Maybe you can blame the government partially for things like this which occur due to their decisions to go to war or whatever. However, people seem all to willing to overlook the fact that terrorists did this. Terrorists prey on unsuspecting crowded places. In our case, they started a war against us. We did not start it against them. We put up with it for years before acknowledging there was a war and started to fight back. When can one declare this war on terrorism to be over? When we capture the top Al Qaeda leadership to claim victory? I doubt even if you capture their top leadership that it will end. It's a war that's never going to end. At some point, you either declare it over and pull back. Or, you keep doing what were doing...which doesn't appear to be working. The terrorists claim we are committing crimes. Their whole lot in life is to commit crimes. However, they commit crimes under the name of religion so this is their justification in their minds that they do not commit crimes. They commit the will of Allah. They want to blame it all on the US and its allies. That kind of logic just doesn't work except in their minds. I'm sure a lot of you can rip my thread apart or whatever. I'm just stating my opinions....right or wrong. I don't claim to be a "know-it-all" on all this subject matter. I have much deeper thoughts than I'm writing here. I believe that terrorism is fueled by perceived injustice in the world as relates to them but a lot of terrorists are suckered in by propaganda and their perceived truth of what's happening in the world. Everyone has their own perceptions of truth and reality. However, terrorists operate in such a way that it cannot be the right or accepted way. Everything they do is based in shadiness, illegal activity, and indiscriminate killing. Their not out there trying to lead acceptable, moral lives. They do everything in opposition of the rest of the world...not in conjunction with. It all can probably be tracked back in some fashion to their extreme interpretation of Islam. But, I believe that interpretation has no place in today's world because it lacks civility and morality in any fashion. Alright...right or wrong...I'm done.
“Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us.” —Vice President Dick Cheney, Speech to VFW National Convention, August 26, 2002 “The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program.” —President George W. Bush, Cincinnati, Ohio, October 7, 2002 “Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent.” —President George W. Bush, The State of the Union Address, January 28, 2003 “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.” —President George W. Bush, The State of the Union Address, January 28, 2003 “We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more.” —Secretary of State Colin Powell, Remarks to the United Nations Security Council, February 5, 2003 “We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons — the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have.” —President George W. Bush, Weekly Radio Address, February 8, 2003 “And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.” —Vice President Dick Cheney, NBC’s “Meet the Press,” March 16, 2003 “Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.” —President George W. Bush, Address to the Nation, March 17, 2003 “We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad.” —Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Discussing WMD on ABC’s “This Week” with George Stephanopoulos, March 30, 2003 “We are learning more as we interrogate or have discussions with Iraqi scientists and people within the Iraqi structure, that perhaps he destroyed some, perhaps he dispersed some. And so we will find them.” —President George W. Bush, Interview by Tom Brokaw, NBC, April 24, 2003 “I’m not surprised if we begin to uncover the weapons program of Saddam Hussein — because he had a weapons program.” —President George W. Bush, Oval Office Remarks, May 6, 2003 “The larger point is, and the fundamental question is, did Saddam Hussein have a weapons program? And the answer is, absolutely. And we gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn’t let them in. And, therefore, after a reasonable request, we decided to remove him from power...” — President George W. Bush Oval Office Remarks, July 14, 2003 despite your modest closure,surfguy, i think you actually did make some intelligent observations. muslim extremist terrorism. "evil" says bush. "duh" i say. its cancerous thought created by hatred for the U.S. they see U.S. as snakes spoling policy in their theocratic regions. Osama fought with Afghanis to topple the USSR FOR the U.S.A. John Ashcroft has his moment shaking hands with Saddam. U.S.A. was at one time in support of Hussain's regime. With no WMDs , many think that Iraq was Oil-motivated with "sweet heart" deals in mind for Halliburton. Bush supporters will scoff at this notion, dismissing the silly liberals. But wait. What about Middle Eastern discontents. Do you not think that they too share that belief? This drives more cancerous-thought driven extremists to the al-qaeda sign up list. So the paragraph above, surfguy, goes with your logic that i agree with that terrorism is less a group of people that can be killed and more a idea, an anti-US culture that was fed by Operation Freedom. U.S. policies and actions in the war against terrorism should be spending $100 billion on find al-qaeda...not fanning the fire in that region with controversial wars. we look more the snake, we look more the evil entity of the west now. our shining city has lost its luster, our hill has become sunk.
geeeezus. i'm going to start contributing to the forum so i can edit my posts. i said ashcroft, but i meant rumsfield.
"Some wars cannot be won without a genocide of the enemy. But, if the enemy is faceless and nameless, then identification and elimination of the enemy is impossible." (Surfguy)
The actions of Al Qaida have (more than likely) directly changed the outcome of a major election. Spain's Socialists Claim Victory By ED McCULLOUGH, Associated Press Writer MADRID, Spain - Voters ousted Spain's ruling party in elections Sunday, with many saying they were shaken by bombings in Madrid and furious with the government for backing the Iraq (news - web sites) war and making their country a target for al-Qaida. The Socialist Party declared victory with 79 percent of the votes counted, as results showed it winning 164 seats in the 350-member parliament and the ruling Popular Party taking 147. The latter had 183 seats in the outgoing legislature. "According to the available data, the Socialist Party has won the general election. It is a clear victory," said Jose Blanco, the party's campaign manager. Turnout was high at 76 percent. Many voters said Thursday's bombings, which killed 200 people and wounded 1,500, was a decisive factor, along with the government's much-criticized handling of the initial investigation. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&e=1&u=/ap/20040314/ap_on_re_eu/spain_elections
Didn't Hitler burn down the Parliment building to help his party? I wonder if Spain's socialist party is capable of doing the same thing? DD
Sadly I think this is a perfectly reasonable question. In this case, though, I would think it unlikely on the face of it, mainly because the opposing parties would have no way to know that the PP would bungle their reaction so terribly by insisting on ETA's involvement. My surmise is that if the PP had been forthcoming immediately and acknowledged that mounting evidence pointed to AQ and then had they taken the requisite hard-on-terror public posturing, many voters would have been sympathetic. My reading of the situation leads me to believe that Spaniards are less bothered by the causal relationship between Aznar's support for Bush and the Madrid attacks than they are by the PP's prevarication.
I think they may have lost because of Iraq even without the attack, the attack might have just sealed it.
This is exactly what al Qaida wants to do. They know that if they bomb something it will affect the stock market. I have no doubt they will attempt attacks on the U.S. to affect the U.S. election. You can't let things like this affect your decisions. If you do you are letting the terrorists blackmail you into doing what they want.
so are you insinuating that if al qaeda attacks the U.S. again on U.S. soil...that we should all vote bush because otherwise the terrorists win!?!?!??!
I heard somewhere that this bombing happened exactly 911 days after the September 11th attack. Anyone feel like counting up the days to verify this?
you are correct. bombings ocurred 9/11/01 and 3/11/04. 19 days from Sept. 2001 31 days from Oct. 2001 30 days from Nov. 2001 31 days from Dec. 2001 365 days from 2002 365 days from 2003 31 days from Jan. 2004 29 days from Feb. 2004 10 days from Mar. 2004 =911 days.
Yes, and if Al Qaeda doesn't attack the US again, then we should vote for bush because he has successfully defended us from al qaeda. Wonderful how it works out.
