I hate to burst your Rocket colored bubble but we don't have an advantage in the backcourt. If anything, it's a push, but no advantage. Kobe is an amazing SG and Fisher is a solid PG. Kobe produces 30 while Fisher produces 11 points a game. Cat and Francis give just under 40 combined points a game. Francis plays average defense while Cat has improved tremendously on that side of the ball, but Fisher is a solid defender and Kobe's the best defender of the 4. We don't have an advantage against the Lakers in the backcourt, but we match up the best with them compared to the other teams in the league with the exception of the Bucks backcourt. ------------------ Sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here...
Fisher has had a nice run, but he isn't that good. Francis is much better than Fisher, and Mobley is only a little behind Kobe. Clear advantage Rockets. ------------------ The Protrolls.com message boards! Protrolls.com! Home of Turn, Tweak, and all your demented favorites!
<u>Francis and Mobley's combined #'s</u> 39.4 points/game 11.9 boards/game (+3) 9 assists/game 2.82 steals/game .72 blocks/game 5.4 turnovers/game <u>Bryant and Fisher's combined #'s</u> 39.9 points/game (+.5) 8.9 boards/game 9.3 assists/game (+.3) 3.63 steals/game (+.81) .73 blocks/game (+.01) 4.7 turnovers/game (-.7) The only advantage Francis and Mobley have is in rebounding. You could argue that the reason Francis and Mobley have more rebounds is because they actually have to crash the boards since our PF can't rebound to save his life. It's a push IMO, definitely not a clear advanatage. ------------------ Sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here... [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited May 27, 2001).]
The Rockets have more balance in the backcourt. You're not likley to see Fisher go for 30+ at the same time as Kobe, but both Rockets could do it. Was the Piston's backcourt superior to the Rockets'? They averaged around 41 ppg, but Stackhouse got about 30 of those. Same with the Lakers. The only backcourt that could arguably be considered better than the Rockets' would be Milwaukie's. ------------------ The Protrolls.com message boards! Protrolls.com! Home of Turn, Tweak, and all your demented favorites!
Yes, Francis and Mobley both average their 20 points per game, while Fisher might have 2 twenty point games and then two 3 point games. Also, Francis and Mobley BOTH create matchup problems for the other teams. Francis often has to be doubled upon receiving the ball, and defenses also have to adjust to the strong isolation play of Mobley. On the Lakers only Kobe creates matchup problems for the opposing team. ------------------
I think one solid PG and an incredible SG is just as good as 2 good guards, but I'm really tired of being the Kobe supporter on the board so I'm not going to talk about how great Kobe is anymore. (especially in the Rockets forum) ------------------ Sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here... [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited May 27, 2001).]
If we got Webber and keep Olajuwon somehow, we would give the Lakers some serious trouble, and maybe win after more playoff experience. Francis is a quick point guard who can score, WEbber is a dominant power forward, and Hakeem can pull Shaq out of the lane. These are the three things you must have to have a chance against the Lakers as the Blazers showed last year, with Damon causing problems with his quickness, Rasheed killing AC and Horry, and Sabonis pulling Shaq away from the basket. The way the Blazers played inspired ball last year in Game 7 the first three quarters, they deserved the championship, but they choked. And i can't even begin to explain what happened to them this year. ------------------ "See they pick and pick and pick. Man they picked me to death." -Steve Francis on the Utah Jazz
Kobe is a SUPERSTAR. Fisher is a solid PG who can hit 3's and play good defense. Francis and Mobley are both stars. I'd rather have a true Superstar and a solid, complimentary guy than 2 star players myself. Also, defensively, the Lakers backcourt puts the Rockets backcourt to SHAME. No 2 ways about it. Francis is a horrific defensive player and Mobley is average at that aspect. But I would take the Rockets backcourt over Milwaukee. Cassell is overrated, never looks to pass. The only reason he gets so many assists is that Robinson and Allen can hit from anywhere. Allen is a stud, but Cassell is overrated IMO. 1) Kobe, Fish 2) Francis, Mobley 3) Cassell, Allen 4) Nash, Finley ------------------ Get Cato out of there...
It's a poor comparison because Webber has never raised his level of play in the postseason in 8 years, while Duncan just had one bad game. Duncan's record in the postseason is something like 25-8. The LA series was nothing new for Webber. If we get Webber (I still want him as of now), Francis and Mobley will be the ones who have to get us through the playoffs, because Webber has never shown that ability.
I think it is fair to say that as of right now, Francis and Mobley is slightly better than Fisher/Kobe. However, in the long run, I feel that Francis and Mobley will be miles ahead as a whole. Both Francis and Mobley are improving and are nowhere near the ceilings of their games imo. Kobe will improve as well but with Fisher, its what you see is what you get. PGs usually dont start coming into their own and dominating till their 3rd season, and Francis still has plenty of room to grow in that position. John Stockton and Gary Payton, considered two of the best PGs in the 90s, were non factors their first 2-3 seasons. I wouldnt sell this backcourt short. If this team adds Chris Webber and continues to draft well, they will be going toe to toe with the Lakers for the next 7-8 years. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
Francis is a horrific defensive player and Mobley is average at that aspect. Did you even watch a game this year? Francis is a rapidly improving defensive player, and is getting better every game. He may not be great, but he's at least average, maybe a little above average. But horrible? Not even close. I'd take Steve's defense over Fisher's any day of the week. What you fail to consider is all of the Lakers perimeter defenders have Shaq to back them up, unlike the Rockets. The Lakers don't have to give the offensive player any room, because who cares if they get by you? You have Shaq back there in the middle who can erase almost all mistakes. Jason Williams, the worst defensive guard in the game, could look average if he was the starting PG on the Lakers, simply because he has quick hands and Shaq to back him up if someone penetrates by him. The Lakers have good team defense because of Shaq; however, that leads many people to the wrong assumption that all of their individual parts play better defense than their counterparts at the position. Wrong. Shaq makes up for so many shortcomings of Laker defenders it's crazy... and unfortunately he doesn't get near the credit for that that he deserves. The next time Shaq has an injury and goes down for 5-10 games, take a close look at the defense of Kobe and Fisher. It isn't near the same... Neither Kobe or Fisher are horrible defenders; both are average to slightly above average. But any talk that they are spectacular in this area and miles ahead of Francis and Mobley should be put to rest. Whenever they make a mistake, it doesn't stand out at all because they have Shaq behind them to give the help. The Rockets mostly have Kelvin Cato. Big difference. ------------------ President of the Mo Taylor and Jason Collier fan club! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited May 27, 2001).]
I think Kobe is an overrated defender, he has been gettin all this praise just because of that one game last year when he held Iverson to 16 points. Fisher, on the other hand, is a great defender IMO, because he has solid pressure defense, and hounds opposing PGs. He is one of the best charge takers (floppers) in the league. ------------------ "See they pick and pick and pick. Man they picked me to death." -Steve Francis on the Utah Jazz
Mango No doubt in my mind he wants to go to the East. Any eastern playoff team + Webber will go to the finals. What is the alternative? You know, I mean, not having Chris Webber doesn't make us a better team. The sad truth remains that this isn't a very talented team right now. Messing around with clowns like Marc Jackson gets us no closer to our goal than signing Webber. I'm not saying we have to completely gear our offense around the guy, but it would be nice to atleast sometimes have the option of going inside. Quite frankly because there aren't any 5's out there. In the current NBA, if you have a 6'9 guy who can eat glass, you plug him at '5'. There is really no difference between '4' and '5' as they are interchangeable. As far as your list, we didn't get Duncan (which I admit, I thought would happen), we realistically can't get Brand or Wallace, and Taylor is too soft. I think when you have the opportunity to nab a second-tier superstar like Webber, you go for it. Part of the criticism on this board about Webb has been that he isn't Shaq or Duncan. I'm not claiming he is. I agree with TheFreak in that if we ever go to the Finals, it will be behind Francis. However, Webber is a pretty damn good core component #2, don't ya think? ------------------ how could you not want c-webb?
thacabbage, I agree with your point that true quality 5's are a rare breed in the NBA. Lets go with the idea that Webber will be a Rocket next season and they make the playoffs against the Lakers.... Who do you see logging the majority of the minutes at the 5 in that series? A rookie such as: Woods Haywood Johnson Diop A second year man such as Collier? Kobe should be playing equal to, if not better than he has this past season and his defender will be overmatched and beaten often. The Mr X who is playing the 5 for the Rockets can't offer too much in the way of support for Kobe's defender because that leaves Shaq open for dunks and putbacks. There might be a chance to improve the 5 spot in future years, but will all of the components be in place before Webber has started his declining years? Webber is known as a good but not great defender. Cat, Francis and Webber would be expected to average about 63 points between them. That leaves roughly 37 points for the "5", "3" and the bench. Subtract 18 points for bench production and the "5" and "3" have about 19 points to split. The 5 and 3 will have to be hard working defensive players who will not complain about a lack of shots. Some members of this BBS have advanced ideas/proposals that SAR or some other high profile SF be obtained in addition to signing Webber. Based on an optimistic 100 points a game average, there aren't enough shots available for Webber, SAR?, Cat, Francis, "5" and the bench. Am I anti-Webber? Probably, only in the sense that I see other areas that the team needs to drastically upgrade besides the PF spot to be a true contender. Strong improvement in the defensive and rebounding areas will be huge keys because that will allow Francis and Cat to leak out more on the break for easy baskets rather than playing a half-court set against a zone. Should the Rockets obtain Webber? Only if they can come up with a viable plan/solution to upgrade the 5 in the near future to make a title run before Webber has peaked. It is doubtful that Webber will play as long or at the same level as Malone has. Waiting for Diop, Woods, Johnson et al to grow into the job would make me skeptical about the possibility of the team making a title run within the next 2-3 years. Mango ------------------ Get it right or just don't do it! Resistance is futile....you will be assimilated. Start more Webber threads!
Mango, Webber can be a very good player for a lot longer than 2-3 yrs. He is only 28 yrs old and has 5-7 good yrs ahead of him before his game starts to decline. Its not like Webber has any conditioning problems or anything along those lines. Chris Webber is actually one year YOUNGER than Shaquille O'Neal so if you apply that same logic, the Lakers run would be over in 2 yrs. Also, before someone goes and makes the point that writers like Blinebury love to make (well Shaq can play into his late 30s b/c he is such a big guy) let me refute that. What makes Shaq the player he is not only has to do with size, but the fact that he also moves very well for a 315-330 pound center. Once Shaq's lateral movement and agility start slowing down, then his game will as well. If it was only a matter of size, then there wouldnt be so many big man busts. My opinion then is that I am in 100% support of a full pursuit of Chris Webber. I am against just waiting and waiting for some center to one day show up b/c that is such a tough position to fill. I would fully support drafting a seasoned college center like Loren Woods or Ken Johnson and then hope to re-sign Olajuwon. If Hakeem sticks by his demands, then just play ball with Woods/Collier/Cato etc at the 5 position. I dont expect this team to go out next season and beat the Lakers in a 7 game series even if they acquire Webber. Things like that just dont happen overnight. However, what I do expect is that they will rise dramatically in the standings moving into the top 4 in the West and will start cementing themselves as a contendor in the years to come. I strongly believe that Francis and Mobley will continue to improve and that this team will go toe to toe with the Lakers year after year. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
Why would anybody really be against acquiring Webber, first of all, it would greatly improve our team with someone who can score and rebound down low. Even if we don't get Webber and go for someone at the "5", who would we get that would improve our team more than Webber would? That's right there is no one out there that we realistically could get. Webber is in the top 10 players of the league, and right now he is better thatn Francis, but Francis has vowed to be a different player next year, with more leadership and more control over the team. I am guessing that if he works as hard as I think he will, he will vault into the top 10 players of the league. So why would anyone not want 2 of the top 10 players in the league on our team next year? ------------------ "See they pick and pick and pick. Man they picked me to death." -Steve Francis on the Utah Jazz [This message has been edited by LiLStevie3 (edited May 28, 2001).]
I just don't see how we can worry about something like that right now. Obviously, the ideal scenario would have us acquiring a Theo Ratliff type, but we can't pass on a player like Webber simply because we are "waiting for that right center." agreed. Talk of acquiring SAR or any other star perimeter player is crazy. We have no need for them. Any '3' that needs the ball takes away from Steve and Cuttino's effectiveness. Again, I agree. However, I think blue collar needs can be addressed through the draft and minor trades which are trademark of only a shrewd front office. Also, if not Webber, then who? Antonio Davis isn't coming and Marc Jackson isn't the defensive minded force the BBS has made him out to be. Again I don't understand the correlation between Webber and obtaining a decent '5'. If we acquire a '5', it will not be via free agency (as so few are available) so I don't see how signing Webber would interfere. Also, I feel like we'll have a 5-6 year window of opportunity with Webber. This is because he will not be the main peice to the puzzle, rather Steve will. By the 5th year, Webber will be 33, and while he won't be the force he is now, he will easily average 19 and 10. Again, it all goes back to my central argument that Steve is this team's franchise player and any success they have will be due to Steve's maturity, not Webber's. ------------------ how could you not want c-webb?
thacabbage, I have been involved in threads involving this and related topics before. Championship history and All-Defensive Teams in this thread: http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/Forum3/HTML/012855-3.html Another thread: http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/Forum3/HTML/009852.html In that thread, I pointed out that the PF does not have much of a track record in leading their team to a championship, so I agree with you and TheFreak about Francis being the driving force for the team. When Ratliff went down with an injury, Larry Brown decided that this was the season to push through and swung a huge trade for Mutombo. So far, the gamble is paying off with Mutombo anchoring the defense in place of Ratliff. The 2000-2001 All Defensive Teams 1st Mutombo Kidd Payton Garnett Duncan 2nd Shaq Kobe Christie Bruce Bowen P.J. Brown After looking at the information cited above, defense means quite a bit to me. Mango ------------------ Get it right or just don't do it! Resistance is futile....you will be assimilated. Start more Webber threads! [This message has been edited by Mango (edited May 28, 2001).]
I think that is just "Our" optimism. I am sure many at this board, after seeing Dream dominate for so long, would love to get another star "5". Well there are none available. The Power Forward position is a part of basketball, why not get the best player available to play there. I realize that we still probably wont be able to beat the Lakers, but why would you not want to become a better team, regardless of how well you can play the Lakers now? I also don't understand what our hole at the Center spot has to do with Webber's not fitting in. But I do agree with you about Webber's actualy willingness to come here. He's got 3 great suitors out in the East, at least two of which are more exciting than Sacramento. The Magic already have T-Mac, Hill, Miller, and Armstrong place Webber in and you have a top 5 team. Add Webber to the Knicks, and again you have a top 5 team. Even add Webber to the Pacers, and you would have a top 5 team. Pretty much all along, I have said that Webber on the Rockets was, at best, a small possibility. ------------------ Never Underestimate the Heart of a Champion
Mango, Cabbage: If we get Webber....there goes the cap room. All our holes would HAVE to be filled through possible trades (with not much to trade, maybe a Shandon, Walt or Cato) or through the draft. We could get Richard Jefferson who would be a defensive minded small forward that would help us out alot at the three spot, and then minus trades at draft time or moving up, we could easily get a Ken Johnson and a Joe Forte. Shandon won't be here, so hopefully we could trade him somewhere, maybe Toronto? Atlanta? Get a blue collar guy like JYD, or a Theo(I wish ). Mo's gone, Kenny is a nice backup at the four. Sign Moochie, Bullard, Langhi, and Robert Horry. This would be the best possible situation for our roster if all these pieces fell into place. C: Ken Johnson/Cato/Collier pf: Webber/Kenny/JYD?(utility hard nose) sf: Horry/Jefferson/Walt?/Bullard sg: Mobley/Forte pg: Francis/moochie Which doesn't sound very bad too me at all, but the possibility of 1) getting Webber, and 2) having all these other pieces fall into place are very small. So no webber. the ship sinks, he signs in Indiana or Orlando, what then?? the same deal, except more flexabilty. Resign Mo, Trade Shandon and whatever for some hardnose utility 4 and 5 men, JYD, Antonio, whatever, some prototypical blue collar big man to fill in whenever we need him. Draft the exact same way. Resign the bench. Resign Dream. Sign Horry. c: Dream/Ken/Cato/Collier pf: Mo/Kenny/JYD sf: Richard Jefferson/Horry/walt?/bullard sg: mobley/forte pg:francis/moochie and you're almost at a push with a slight disadvantage but yet alot more feasibile then scenario one. THE QUESTION: Mango, Cabbage, men enough to take this on. What would you do, hypothetically and realistically to make this team at least a second round playoff team untill Francis and Mobley can completely dominate the guard position. Webber and Sans Webber. I think this could be the biggest offseasons of our lives (oh yeah, nice to see you posting again Cabbage) ------------------ -jbond77
