FWIW, for those hearing that they are now scrambling to get plans to get our nukes out of Incirlik...Incirlik is in the part of Turkey that is heavily Kurdish. When I flew into the airport there in Adana, many years ago, there were machine gun pits surrounding the airfield...with guns pointing out (ie, to keep terrorists away). Airport was also heavily controlled by the Turkish military. I say this because if we are indeed planning on getting the nukes out of there, it may well be as much because of concern over the Kurds as it might be over the Turks. But we've had that base there for many many many years...I highly doubt anything will happen there. Certainly not caused by the Turks...they couldn't want to start that kind of firestorm.
You’re right. Trump’s brilliant plan was to green light Turkey’s assault on the Kurds without deliberate consultation with our military, our allies, or making preparations to secure ISIS prisoners.
You mean a decorated military veteran like Tulsi Gabbard is not qualified enough for you to handle military strategy over the draft-dodging bone spur currently undoing decades of American foreign policy work in the Middle East? Got it. Let's keep the bar super high for women while Trump stoops even lower.
Are you disagreeing that this might indeed work out ok, based on past history, specifically with the Kurds? If so, got anything more than the above? Hearing from Turkey that the 'incursion' is not necessarily what we are hearing as well. More of a cleanup of likely terrorists just across the border...which is what Turkey as done before. So, before castigating the intelligence of others, who likely do indeed know a lot more than you do...what do you actually KNOW about what is going on there, how it came about, and what the likely outcome might be?
This is really a reach. Assad hasn’t been a big fan of the Kurds either and Syria has had trouble with Kurdish groups in the past. Given the Syrian regime history there’s no telling what will happen once Assad consolidates victory. This is a desperation move on the part of the Kurds. The Kurdish quasi state in an Iraq came about because it was heavily supported by the US at a time when the Sunni groups in that area were very weak. That didn’t stop them from being attacked by Sunni radicals during ISiS big offensive. If we hadn’t kept support for the Kurds they might’ve been defeated not long after Mosul fell. At the minimum we’ve betrayed, again, an embittered a tribe that was not only pro American but also relatively progressive for that region. We’ve forced them to seek shelter from someone who we had opposed in the face of attacks from an ally. If this is some master plan 4d chess its Putin and Iran who are the chess masters because in only a couple of moves US power and influence in the region has been greatly diminshed. If you’re looking for reasons let’s apply Occam’s razor. Most of the experienced people with strategic backgrounds have left Trump’s Administration. Most of the people who might counter his whims have left the administration.!Trump campaigned as a chaos president and this is chaos. Finally Trump said it himself. He has a conflict when it comes to Turkey because of ongoing business interest there and as we’ve seen multiple times when it comes to Trump family business interests he is remarkably accommodating.
I doubt the Turks would do anything to piss off the sleeping giant in regards to our weapons. Moving them would be a huge mistake but having a plan on the table is never unwise. A presence of soldiers and guns at airports is very normal across Turkey. It's because of PKK terrorists. The same ones that created the YPG offshoot that is being glorified by the media.
Kurds are as welcome in the region as Palestinians. Realistically statehood was a reach, but we rode that angle hard in order to contain Daesh and whatever else spawned from the hell mouth that was Iraq. Disgusting move for a disgusting foreign policy. ****ing them over and going home will not solve that shitshow nor allow us to remove ourselves from that region anytime soon. Pretending to be invisible or calling time out is exactly the reason how Daesh popped like a bloody zit in the first place. Dipshit Trump still pretending to armchair while everyone else in the room, all the generals, all the diplomats, all the civil servants living in the shadows are dying slowly inside.
Interesting. Are you Turkish? How did they almost kill your grandfather? Also I think you have to take into context the full situation before you generalize about Ataturk like that. Go read Andrew Mango's biography on Ataturk. It's a fascinating read.
How do you know the details? Maybe some Kurds were positioned nearby to get this event to drum up american support and try to pull them back in. We weren't there but there is always more to these stories. There is really no motive for the Turks to fire at the troops. And no one was actually fired at. And no one died. Turks claim they were fired upon and responded accordingly. This motive makes more sense. You can't honestly say that isn't what happened and I certainly don't think the Turks are 100% truthful, just as we aren't, nor the Kurds. The one thing I know for sure it that the Kurds had every motive to get the US back in the fold. They are heavily focused on optics and this is very well what they wanted, or even just a pleasant surprise for them. And also killing US troops, or firing at them, seems to serve no real positive purpose.
Some turkomen milita killed some. I see no mass execution taking place from Turkey. Go take a university level history class. Or hell, just pay more attention to the current news and wait beyond initial twitter reports to see what really happened and put some context on it.
I'll begin placing things in here to provide further context into what I've said for bickering posters who think I don't provide enough links. When I have more time, I'll try to add more in the future. I understand not everyone is as up on their Turkish-Syria-Kurd knowledge. So here is one post of possibly many regarding this for some background. The first thing I want to make clear to people is the nature of the YPG militia in the Syrian area. It is first, an offshoot of the PKK terror group in Turkey, a well-known communist separatist group, and also this fact is further evidence that the Kurds fighting are not simply defending their homes. Their motives go beyond that. I shouldn't have to source this but I have had people cast doubt on my claim that the YPG are just PKK with a new name. The PKK, as my source provided explains, is a terror group in Turkey. The US also considers them a terror group. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/14/world/middleeast/the-kurds-facts-history.html Why does Turkey want to oust them from the area? The militia is an offshoot of a Kurdish guerrilla group known as the Kurdistan Workers’ Party that has waged a decades-long insurgency inside Turkey. Turkey and the United States consider it to be a terrorist organization. Turkey sees Kurdish control of an area so close to its border as a major security threat, and fears that the area could become a haven for dissidents fleeing Turkey — or a springboard for insurgents plotting attacks on Turkish territory. Turkish hostility to Kurdish groups put the United States in a bind: one American ally, Turkey, a NATO member and a fellow adversary of the Syrian government, was eager to crush another American ally, the Kurdish militia that fought on the front lines against ISIS. ---------------------------------- I posted this link in another thread, but it's worth grouping here. It shows how the Kurds are cleansing the lands they are stealing. Not simply defending. Again, the common misconception is the Kurds are heroes defending themselves. They are not just doing that. They are carving out an ethnostate and this is further evidence of it. The evidence for this largely lies in their broad actions, which must not be ignored. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al...ans-eye-return-homelands-191014130349072.html
Unlikely. Trump is a low information kinda guy. His decisions thus are way more superficial. Erdogan: That Trump Tower sure is a nice hotel. It would be a shame if something happened to it.
So you are making up excuses in your head. I'm going with the statements from the DoD who was in charge of the people on the ground. They monitor those things pretty closely. You are supposing and taking your guesses over what people on the ground are saying.
I don't swallow Turkish propaganda. The Kurds aren't angels but the idea that they deserve what is happening to or that Turkey is in the right here is one sided to say the least.
I live very close to Turkey. I can literally see the colour of their houses from mine. In the good days before , we used to visit each other every week. Turks tourists came here for weekend holidays and we went there to buy in the bazaar and to even buy groceries. These days along with the Pakistanis, Afghanis immigrants we also rescue Turks running from Erdogan. University professors , doctors, teachers etc running for their lives with all their small children and wives, packed like sardines in small boats often sunk and them drowning. Also also before this crisis, I have met many Kurdish refugees and immigrants. I don't need to generalise about Ataturk. This is MY history, too. My grandpa was in the 1920 war and I am telling the story passed through the family- first hand witness testimony. Ataturk mobilised the Kurds to save Turkey. Then they were suppressed instead of being given equal rights. In the past the PKK has tried to use my country. They tried to pass it as "the enemy of your enemy is your friend" NOT so. We sent their terrorist leader who had murdered people straight back. No love lost for the people who slaughtered us. However THEY aren't trash. They are a different nation than Turkey. Turkey all these years didn't respect their culture and rights. They suppressed them , discriminated and prosecuted them. Banned their language. Now what comes around goes around. The clock is ticking. Turks are becoming less and less and the Kurds more and more. What happens if your second class citizens outnumber you 2 to 1?
Anyone still remember what mad dog resigned over? One core belief I have always held is that our strength as a nation is inextricably linked to the strength of our unique and comprehensive system of alliances and partnerships. While the US remains the indispensable nation in the free world, we cannot protect our interests or serve that role effectively without maintaining strong alliances and showing respect to those allies. Like you, I have said from the beginning that the armed forces of the United States should not be the policeman of the world. Instead, we must use all tools of American power to provide for the common defense, including providing effective leadership to our alliances. NATO’s 29 democracies demonstrated that strength in their commitment to fighting alongside us following the 9-11 attack on America. The Defeat-ISIS coalition of 74 nations is further proof. Similarly, I believe we must be resolute and unambiguous in our approach to those countries whose strategic interests are increasingly in tension with ours. It is clear that China and Russia, for example, want to shape a world consistent with their authoritarian model—gaining veto authority over other nations’ economic, diplomatic, and security decisions—to promote their own interests at the expense of their neighbors, America and our allies. That is why we must use all the tools of American power to provide for the common defense. My views on treating allies with respect and also being clear-eyed about both malign actors and strategic competitors are strongly held and informed by over four decades of immersion in these issues. We must do everything possible to advance an international order that is most conducive to our security, prosperity and values, and we are strengthened in this effort by the solidarity of our alliances. Because you have the right to a Secretary of Defense whose views are better aligned with yours on these and other subjects, I believe it is right for me to step down from my position. We have completely ceded power to Assad and Putin - who will undoubtedly rule the area with their authoritarian model. Democracy just died a bit more and it will not be restored easily. We have caused more damage to NATO with EU and US putting sanction and pressure on Turkey. But really, that's nothing compared to what we have been doing - we have been on a path of alienating our allies and weaken our democratic partnership while seemingly doing much to strengthen Russia hand. Nearly 100 years of allies and partnership weakened and at risk. I'm sure history remember what happen prior to this type of partnership for common defense of common democratic values. Anyone doubt it's going to take a long time to restore the trust of the US military. Will anyone in that region trust the US military again after the abandonment of allies, left for dead? Nope, at least not while Trump is commander in chief, but probably for a much longer time. Are we ever going to be able to re-capture the ISIS prisoners? Let's hope and pray that they can't regroup, or spread over to Europe or even US to kill. Completely avoidable and I don't know of anyone trying to argue that it's in our interest to allow this to happen. These aren't my original thoughts - these are what people in the state dept, in defense, in government, in scholarship, in think tanks, within and outside the US... experts in their fields have stated. People from both the right and left. But sadly, people will still somehow think the stable genius that knew best knew better. It was a gigantic mistake, one that was predictable back in 2016, but that we all have hoped wouldn't happen... here is something predictable - it won't be the last gigantic mistake.
Sounds like you're rationalizing -- constructing the most charitable set of assumptions possible to make Trump's decisions either strategic or serendipitous. The Kurds are more likely to live their remaining days in black sites than they are in an autonomous zone. Meanwhile, not only does it look like Trump did something astronomically stupid, he looks very weak and vulnerable to cede the field and then turn around order ineffectual trade tariffs in the face of a hot war. He's supposed to be the strong-on-defense guy?