what great player has ever been hampered by a "system"?

That is exactly what everybody on this board wants. Pass it to the wing and feed Yao every play. Whats the problem with this?

 

Barkley played 20 games with Steve, not nearly enough to get a feel for someone who is a rookie. It's not the system, it's the focus of the system which is a problem. Steve's a score not a shooter. Scorers need shots. JVG is either unable or unwilling to put together SF gets his shoots (not shots as the shot clock is winding down which accounts for at least a couple of misses a game). I'm looking forward to this next next year when SF has been traded to an Eastern Conference team and the Rockets fighting for the 9th spot in the western conference (LAL,SAC,SA,DAL,MEM,DEN,NO,MINN will all be ahead of the rockets w/o SF). Because what most of the people who want SF traded don't realize is you're not going to get equal talent. The rockets aren't going to be able to trade Steve for a stud PF. Noone is going to trade good big for good little. So the Rockets will get so avg big man and avg point guard. Or maybe they'll ask SF where he would like to go and he would say Washington and trade with the wizards for gilbert arenas and someone else. Neither one of those trades makes the rockets better. But at least Yao will be getting more shots, right?

 

To make your point that Jordan's game was not hampered you have to discredit all of the following.

1) That Jordans stats, more than just ppg, were higher under collins than under Phil Jackson. Possibly true. I haven't checked it out. But you have to do more than that.

2) Then you have to discredit Jordan's own words. A basketball genius' own assessment of the situation. You have to discredit that too. But how, he's a bastball genius proven, by discrediting the third item.

3) All six of the championships. Why under Collins, twice, was his greatness not apparent. Why didn't he win the championship under Collins. I thought you said his greatness would overcome the system. It didn't. It was hampered by it. Your main argument here would have to be the aquisition of Pippen . A player who could do nothing on his own merit, and proved it with three teams, and three different systems. Then you mention Jackson's philsophy. That isn't part of the system? It is. And that's the whole point. That Jordan's game improved with Jackson's system.

 

1. Francis isn't a great player. He's very good, but he's far from great. I don't think there is anybody on this board, no matter how devout a Francis fan who thinks Francis is the kind of player that can carry a team to a championship and that's what great players do.

2. I agree with the statement that if a system did render a great player less effective we'd probably be unaware he was a great player in the first place.

3. and most importantly, what kind of idiot of a coach doesn't build his system around a great player if they're one of the very few fortunate coaches who has a great player on their roster? Most of the players you mention play in systems that were built around them and teams that were built around them. If they were asked to adjust to a system it was generally a system that their coach knew they could thrive under. I don't believe JVG is trying to build his system around Francis. I think he's trying to build this team around Yao Ming.

 

Allen Iverson at point guard.

As with the Iverson case, I think moving Francis to SG would be the best thing for the Rockets.

 

Phil Jackson is a great coach. But Do you remember he said he would never coach a team from the begining. When he was in Chicago and LA , the star player have grown up like Jordan and Shark.

Another point i want to make is that: Rockets is the only team without great outside shooters in the among the good western conference teams.

 

I totally agree with this. I think that's why Steve is struggling, he has yet to learn that he isn't the offensive first option anymore. Once he accepts it, then you would see a whole different player.

 

I don't think Pippen is hampered by a system in Houston. No doubt he's talented, but after 6th title run, he's pretty much done. It's just one the not so smart move by Houston to get him.

 

No one is debating that positions or offensive philosophies can't be customized for a particular player. The question is whether or not a particluar player struggles in ANY system.

Francis struggles in an "iso system" or a "structured system." He's inefficient in both cases. And because of this "realization" maybe we should't consider him "great." Thus, why the max-contract?

That's the issue here.

...we can split hairs all day about whether Jordan faired PPG=X better at PG or SG...or how he learned to trust his teammates...you also have to factor in the additional talent he got after Phil joined in terms of wins.

 

I don't think Steve is hamper by this so called system at all. He just need to be a willing distributor of the ball, and that's all.

All of you guys say that JVG's offensive system sucks, guess what, every offensive system sucks when there's no ball movements, just dribbling down the clock and don't know what to do. The few times our offense don't suck, you see everybody get in on the same page, our assists are high and we play better defense too.

It's all on the decision making of the point guard, I don't think we have a competent point guard except the few times Mark Jackson played.

We're as talented as the top west teams, why do we always lost the same way every time we faced the likes of San Antonio or Dallas? This team is never going to move the top 5 without getting a competent point guard. The only missing piece: a quality PG. (Nash, Kidd, Ford, Hirich, Tinsley, James etc)

 

Another question may be

"what other player in the league has been as negatively affected by zone defenses being allowed?"

Kobe Bryant wasn't a dummy when he specifically mentioned Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley as the players who would have their games negatively affected. This was the offseason before the zone defenses went into effect.

 

System or not, I don't suppose the extra help he got talent wise made a difference.

 

If he play with any of these team, he will be a bench warmer. None of these coaches will let him suck like this.

 

robert horry? rockets? phoenix? lakers? spurs?

 

o wait.. u said great players

 

No way.... all 3 play much better D than Steve especially for intensity......... all 3 drive and dish much better and all 3 control and run their respective teams offenses much better..... Marbury and Baron have better jumpers and all 3 can run a fast break and can also think while holding the ball

 

for me this is the heart of the issue... what does it take to be a truely great player......and for me that is a leading a team to titles

KG is an example of someone who is not yet in that category

players in this category can do so independent of systems no doubt, however there are bunch of players in the next tier below that are also very good players and will like lead teams to playoffs and will also have the ability to lead a team to win independent of the system

for me though at the end of the day, all the truely great or even just great players have bball smarts.... and this is often what makes them good leaders

does he have the bball iq of any of the leaders of past NBA champs, or does he even have the smarts of the 2ndary player on these NBA championship teams....

 

RR, I totally agree with you. But he still hasn't proven himself to be a winner ahead of the pack on a team level. He could get there, no question. He's great. But he's just so easy to target as a Rockets fan who was so used to the playoffs, and there are many ways to analyze a situation like this. Guess I just got spoiled.

 

This is possibly the most skewed statistical analysis ever posted.

In Houston he played a 50 game season AFTER a strike and his stats for the year were:

Hou Por
ppg 14.5 12.5
reb 6.5 6.3
ass 5.9 5.0
fg% .432 .451
3pt% .340 .327 AVG 1 more 3pt attempt in Houston
Stls 2.0 1.4


So, only in your world Pgab does someones stats drop across the board and have a BETTER year.

Not to mention him shooting one more 3 pointer a game would lower his overall FG %......

Nice try.....but your skewed analysis is weak.

Pipps Career Stats

DD