DavidS, maybe you need to read my reply again. You haven't addressed my points. Just quoting what I wrote in segments and then writing something underneath each part does not mean you've refuted or even shown that you comprehend my points. Nobody is trying to convince you that foreign players in the NBA make it on their own merits. This fact is well-established, but Oscar Robertson doesn't seem to be convinced. What do you make of his comparison of international NBA players to foreign workers taking over American jobs? And what about the choice of word in describing Yao Ming as a "spectacle"? If you don't see the inherent contradictions in Oscar's arguments, there's no point for us to engage in a discussion any further. You have only repeated your own point of view without making an attempt to understand mine at all.
It's true. They are taking American jobs. So what? Wanting American players to improve is no crime. And if they don't improve, then more and more jobs will be lost to International players. I say good! But at the same time I want the H.S., NCAA and NBA to take some responsibility for the problem here. And that's what Oscar is saying. But you are trying to make it seem that Oscar is saying that the International players have no talent. That's not what he's saying. He's saying that the NBA's priorities are not with the International players. If you think that Oscar can't see that International players HAVE talent, then I think it is YOU that is seeing something that's not there. I think you are making it up in your head. Do you honestly believe that a hall of famer doesn't recognize the skill and talent of the international players? Get real!!! Pretend you sit down with him and talk basketball. Do you think he would reply with, "International players have NO skill!" ??? No way! It's called SPORTS CRITICISM in the MEDIA. LeBron is a spectacle. So is Kobe. So is Shaq. It think you are just being oversensitive. Yao is not Wilt yet. Lets get real now... And if Yao is not playing aggressive, then he will get called "weak" and "soft." It goes with the territory. By the way, Francis has been called worse...but of course you have no problem with that, do you?
LOL how can you fault the NCAA for not doing more? They're starving for NBA-bound high school talent to come and learn the game.
H.S., NCAA and the NBA need to work together. Not by themselves, else players will just slip through the cracks.
In that case, I think Oscar is unfairly putting all the blame on the system for the failures of the athletes themselves. I don't believe that the American coaches ignore fundamentals. It's just that the players don't always listen. Why? Is it because the media emphasizes the highlight reels and the spectacular plays? Or is it because the fans want to see them that the media is showing so much of it? Shall we blame the fans then? What sells, sells. At the end, the consumers dictate the demand, and the fans are to blame. Oscar is misplacing the blame and also making very poorly constructed arguments for why the system is to blame. Oscar IS saying that the international players are not as athletically gifted as the American players, therefore implying that the American players, with the proper coaching, will dominate the international players. I don't buy this whatsoever. I believe that international coaching is no better than American coaching, and that it's more the attitude rather than the lack of teaching of fundamentals that causes the perceived underachievement of the American players. In fact, I don't even believe that there is any underachievement at all. It's all in Oscar's minds, or your mind, if you believe what Oscar is saying. Just simply accept the facts that international players can measure favorably to American players in skills, in talent, and in intelligence. and get on with it. Don't blame anybody but the players themselves for any perceived shortcomings of theirs. So what if he's a Hall of Famer? It doesn't mean that they are saints and not subjected to the sins of this world, including infidelity, jealousy, prejudice, and hypocrisy. You should get real. Don't speak for Oscar when you can't read his mind. You have absolutely no idea what he truly thinks, so don't even try to claim as such. We are all prejudiced to a degree, and Oscar is not immune to this. The important fact is that Oscar did not call LeBron, Kobe or Shaq a spectacle. Almost everybody agrees that Shaq plays a power game, while Yao has a more well-rounded, fundamentally sound game. Didn't Oscar just advocated for more substance instead of more style? This is pure and simple hypocrisy. Now he says that Yao is a "spectacle"? Didn't you just say that Oscar is a Hall of Famer and therefore realizes international talent when he sees it? Well, calling Yao a spectacle does not support your claim.
There are specific points that Oscar made that are interesting and relevant such as American players' lack of focus on fundamentals/defense. Then there are his views that are slanted or at least nationalistic such as his views that domestic players should be given more focus to develop their skills all around. Then he goes off on the deep end about international players being 'used'. All in all his entire op-ed is incoherent and I can't help feel that it reveals his own bias. Of course his 'bias' could be anything - nationalistic, racial, generational, cultural, priorities, the past, etc. Regardless, it shows a lack of objectivity.
You're absolutely right about the incoherence of his arguments. I also think that you've nailed all of the bias that is so thinly, if at all, veiled in his quotes. Nice post.
I think he's being a bit unfairly slammed. While the arguments were not always entirely cogent, I think that some of them are sound when better phrased. Here's my take: 1. Yao is a "cheap import" in the sense that international players are now being used as a "substitute" for a product that Robertson believes is "all flash, no substance." This does not demean the international players per se, but rather emphasizes that the league is using them to compensate for its marketing focus over fundamentals. 2. He is correct in the sense that flash is emphasized over fundamentals. 3. There was a slight undertone of xenophobia. But it's a thin-line between wanting "your own" to do well and actually being xenophobic. I'm not certain that Robertson crossed it.
Then let me make MY case... A problem exists! And the system is the main cause. Don't you think that if you allow an avenue for players to follow the money, that they will take the easiest path? The American system has allowed this. It starts at H.S. to NCAA, all the way to the NBA. The athletes are just playing by the rules that are given to them. No one said that American coaches are ignoring fundamentals. It's that the American kids know that fundamentals aren't needed for them to enter the NBA because the NBA allows it (and the fans want it). As long as they have natural athletic ability, can jump high and dunk. So the NBA is undermining the NCAA. These "gifted" players are using the system to circumvent hard-work under NCAA coaches. So the system is to blame. Not the players. Sure, the players are taking advantage of the system. But look whose getting drafted...the ones with the most hops or flash...players that don't want to work at the fundaments because they don't have to. They want to take the easiest path. Are they to blame? Sure...some. But they are KIDS! And they are immature. They want the "bling bling!" They will always do this unless the SYSTEM IS CHANGED. <---this is the key issue The reason that International players work harder at learning the game is because they don't take the NBA for granted. They don't cut corners. They can't just rely just on their athletic ability like the American players can. Also, the International league is provided for them to join semi-pro and pro leagues at a young age. And it is there that the coaches stress teamwork and fundamentals. They WANT to learn what American kids do not. The American kids do not have to because the system allows them to do it. And then, the NBA puts them on a pedestal...all based on their athletic ability. You see? American kids wont say, "Yes, I want to work on my fundamentals to get money." No, they will say, "I want to work on my dunking to get money." It's the easy way. The easy route. And that's the problem here in America. The system provides this loophole at the learning and earnings game. And if I read your correctly, you said... Blame the American athletes... Blame the fans... Hmmm, not the system? Sorry, but blaming the fans and American athletes wont solve the problem even if they are part of the problem. It's overlooking the bigger issue: The H.S., NCAA and NBA system. And I'm not talking about "bad American coaches" but rather players skipping the coaching all together. If you can't see that Amare Stodeimire (kid) and Lebron James (kid) are more athletically gifted than Dirk Nowizki or Paul Gasol you are just fooling yourself. That does exist. Now, as strength training improves overseas this may not be that much an issue. But there is an advantage in American strength training than there is overseas. American players just come better prepared physically. We have a head start in that. It's not a priority overseas. They practice technique and fundamentals more. Now, it's true that being fundamentally sound can overcome players that only use their athletically talent. And that's what we've seen from Francis. He lacks the fundamentals, and has been beaten by players that were not as athletically gifted as he, yet they were more fundamentally skilled. Remember, a lot of American players are relying mostly on their athletic talent. And that is giving them enough "perceived" skills to "make it" in the NBA. If these same players would enter the NCAA for four years, they would be incredible when they enterd the NBA. They would have the best of both worlds. Yes "attitude" is an issue. But you can't just say, "Don't do that kids!" They wont listen because the SYSTEM is the problem and it's setup this way...So, what do you do? Spank them? (joke)... International coaching is catching up. But not at the same level as NCAA/NBA. Sorry. The differnce is that the American players ARE skipping NCAA and moving directly to the NBA and that is the real issue about "teaching." You would actually get to see the level of coaching if our best players did go to NCAA. The kids are skipping that part of the development. Now as far as your above statement about "attitude" and "no lack of teaching fundamentals" and "no underachievement." I have no clue of what you are talking about. You lost me there. You are all over the place in your point....First you say that you "don't believe that there is any underachievement" then you say "blame the players themselves." Which is it? Lets step back for a second...How can young players from H.S. get training if they are skipping NCAA and going right to the NBA? They can't even be a "teaching of fundamentals" if the the players circumvent the system and go directly to the NBA. Now, are you blaming the players on this? Also, this has nothing to do with American coaching talent vs International coaching talent. They aren't even getting the coaching in the first place. You see? So how can you even make that assessment? The system is screwed up. Not the coaching. And not the players, although as I've said, the players are abusing the system as it's laid out. But that wont stop unless the system is changed. Again, the problem points back to the H.S., NCAA, and NBA.... It goes both ways....And I will defend Oscar. I'll tell you why... He was a pioneer in the NBA during the 50's, 60's and 70's. And he paved the way against racism that has allowed foreign players to enter the NBA in the first place. And I think you need to read more about him before you are so quick to pass judgment on him. Why do you keep looking at things in either black and white terms. All or nothing. It can go both ways. Yao is not of the elite status that Shaq is. Plain and simple. That does not mean that he doesn't acknowledge Yao's fundamentals. But rather that the NBA is using the "spectacle" of Yao as a marketing tool to push for advertisement. You are saying that Yao's stats are good enough to start. But as you know, it is the fans that vote in the All-Star. So, you can't have it both ways. Yao was voted in. Not because he's the "best at his position." He's not at that level yet. Did you forget that the All-Star is about popularity as much as it is as talent? So, spectacle doesn't mean that Yao has no talent or fundamentals. Its talking about how he being marketed for the All-Star game as opposed to the development level he is currently at. I think what you are doing is completely ignoring Shaq's level of achievement and focusing on Yao only. Shaq does have skills. He's not completely void of those.
Well said haven. One thing still confuses me is that he claims Yao & other foriegn players are imported for the marketing reason, then he blame the the league only prompt players with style, no substance, e.g., LeBrone, etc. What's his logic? Is he trying to say that it's easy to marketing LeBron & Co with foriegn players than with other foundamentaly flawed Afirca-America players? BTW, he bringing out Yao vs Shaq also weaked his argument of prompting FOUNDAMENTAL. The guy cannot even shot FT, aka bball 101. --daoshi
Good Post, I agree with the sentiments of DavidS and Haven. The Big O is simply drawing a parallel between what is happening in the NBA and what is happening in our society as a whole. This is a basic (and fundamentally sound) writing device and it works well in this context IMO. In fact, I thought it was down right insightful. But like all analogies, it breaks down at a certain level (if they didn’t they would be exactly the same rather than similar). Big props to the Big O for calling the NBA out on its short-sighted approach to marketing the game.
Wow, who ta hell does Oscar think he is to make a statement that Yao and all other international players are cheap labor. So what if they come over and play in the NBA, isn't the title called World Championship? if you don't want international players, shouldn't the title in all sports called US or National Championships? If I was living in other countries, I'll be pissed. How about Hakeen? wasn't he from Africa? where was the comparison then? Bottom line, it's all about race because all the international players aren't black and the spot light is going to Yao, Dirk, Gasol, Peja, Nash, and etc.
Points are down in the NBA because of poor offense due to lack of fundamentals. They keep trying to change the rules to mask this fact. It's not working. End of discussion. Marketing drives this league, just like everything else in America. It's a multi-billion dollar business. They would go under if they didn't market like crazy. But that doesn't and shouldn't stop old school purists from longing for the days when things were simpler. Shaq is better than Yao, at least for now. He's the best player in the NBA. He combines good fundamentals with power. Wilt couldn't hit free throws either. He doesn't just dunk. If you think he just dunks you haven't seen him play since his rookie season. Get over it. DH One final note. The old argument that stars of yesteryear wouldn't be stars today is a ridiculous, childish notion that needs to be put to rest. That's like saying that Einstein wasn't as smart as Bill Gates because because Einstein couldn't produce a user-friendly operating system called Windows. Apples and oranges, friends...
Who are these fundamentally unsound players that the NBA is supposedly marketing over the fundamentally sound foreign players? Last year with Amare Stoudemire and Yao Ming is about the only example I can think of. Sure they are touting Melo and Lebron...but those guys are both very fundamentally sound, which is why they are doing so well in the NBA at such a young age. That doesn't fit the claim. And as for the marketing bit...I would say Yao Ming has been marketed very HEAVILY compared to his stats and accomplishments so far in the NBA.
Haven, I think your take on his op-ed is logical, especially if it's primarily aimed at an American audience (which I think is the case here). My only quibble (and it's really not a big one) is that the forum for this piece is the NY Times which has international readership and fairly hefty domestic social opinions with regards to foreign/foreigner policy. His characterization of the role of international players as some sort of bogeyman to rally your own is slightly more perturbing. Having said all of that. I think the guy means well from an American point of view (I think he's far more critical of Americans than foreigners in the article) despite his personal biases or preferences (and not neccesarily in the extreme negative form) which may be outdated or misplaced.
I like what he said and agree with him im the main. However I do think that Yao Ming earned the fans vote and looks ready to take the the 'Big Man' title away from Shaq!
Anthropologists state that human civilization began in Africa millions of years ago. So technically, all of us - including Yao - are African.
Guess I just don't really understand the point of the article. American kids play basketball for the highlight reels and are usually lacking in fundamentals. This has become more apparent over time. Meanwhile, basketball is growing in foreign countries. Team managements begin to see the abundance of talent overseas who are untainted by the desire to be on highlight reels. Teams start drafting foreign born players because they are often better than American players. The end. This article says nothing new or interesting.
International Players are less atheletic? I think people forget Hakeem (Nigeria)? What about Nene (Brazil)? NBA greats Tim Duncan (Virgin Islands)? Theres tons of international players as atheletic as American Players.. That argument doesnt hold water. Just depends on where your looking and what you consider International Players. (which usually means non-black) J
