Wow! This would be my dream trade for this team. It probably won't happen, but man, I would love to get Baron on the Rockets.
I hope you aren't suggesting that winning a regular season game is better than actually getting into the play-offs? Yao has to improve. We will depend on him. And if he has weaknesses, he must improve those. The up-tempo style you are refering to that got us wins against Dallas was the exact "style" that did us in, against other teams. The "ISO way" of playing did get us wins sometimes. But not consistently. What you are talking about is an aberration of guard oriented ISO ball. That's a lot different than "small ball" under JVG. JVG small ball is not exclusively ISO-ball. And if we needed to make a change vs Dallas, that would be the way to go sometimes. JVG smallball has a lot more movment than Rudy ISO ball. I never want to go back to that.
I love Baron, but I have always seen Stevie outplay him. Besides, even if they are equals what JVG-type skills does he bring to the table that Stevie doesn't already irritate JVG with?
He's younger, smarter, and a better passer than Steve. Plus, I like his attitude a heck of a lot more.
Throwing it donw to Yao and Mo didn't get us in the playoffs either last year. It was a tough conference and we played horribly down the stretch. I'm actually not advocating either style. I was just countering Haven's point that all anouncers and NBA people think the guards are idiots and worthless and the only person on the team worth oxygen is Yao Ming.
Not idiots and worthless. Just inability to improve and they are holding the team back unless they DO improve. <---this is what the media recognizes Yao has shown improvement in his 2nd year what it's taken Francis in his 5th. Sooner or later Yao will pass up Francis. And then the "*hit" will hit the fan! Yao = shown great improvement, and when he does make mistakes they are easily forgiven because his total game is showing promise. Francis = shown little improvement, and when he does make mistakes the are not easily forgiven because his total game is NOT showing promise.
I don't understand the purpose of this thread. No one has ever questioned Steve's popularity, but rather his value to the team winning the title.
The great players, their notoriety is made in the playoffs," Collins said. "They're in a position to be a playoff team and maybe win in the first round. But you know, Michael Jordan got great criticism early in his career because he was a great player but he didn't go anywhere in the playoffs. Isiah (Thomas), the same way. Then these guys led their teams to championships. That quote seems to be about championships so I guess this thread does have a purpose.
In respone to Collins comments... At least Jordan and Isiah were statically sound in their earlier years. Francis is nether "great" statically or leadership wise. He's poor on both counts. If we are in a "lets wait for them to improve" mode. At least show some statistical improvement, if we are to "wait for for their development." Because statistics and intangibles are directly related.
In Rockets history, ranks fourth in career scoring average, second in career assists average, third in career steals average, fourth in triple-doubles, fifth in three-pointers made and sixth in steals Stood with Kevin Garnett as the only NBA players to average 20 points with six rebounds and six assists in 2002-03 Scored a career-high 44 points with 11 assists vs. the L.A. Lakers on 1/17/03, becoming the first player in Rockets history to reach 40 points and 10 assists in the same game Has 69 career double-doubles and six career triple-doubles Started at point guard for the Western Conference in the 2002 NBA All-Star Game Averaged 19.9 points, 6.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists and a career-high 1.76 steals per game during the 2000-01 season, becoming the first Rockets player and the 18th player in NBA history to lead his team in total points, rebounds and assists Named the 1999-2000 Schick NBA Co-Rookie of the Year, sharing honors with Chicago's Elton Brand Compiled his first career triple-double on 1/27/00 vs. Golden State with 25 points and career highs of 17 rebounds and 14 assists Led Houston with averages of 18.0 points, 6.6 assists and 1.53 steals in his first season, becoming the first Rockets rookie to lead his team in all of these categories Honored as a unanimous selection on the Schick All-Rookie First Team Became the first player in franchise history to register 400 rebounds and 500 assists in the same season Set the Rockets rookie record for assists in a season On Jan. 24, 2000, became the first rookie in franchise history to win NBA Player of the Week Finished as the runner-up to Vince Carter in the NBA.com Slam Dunk Contest, following his performances in the Schick Rookie Challenge and Sony 2ball competition during the All-Star Weekend. Was the only player to top 20 points, 6 rebounds, and 6 assists per game in 2001-02 Became the fourth NBA player to average at least 15 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists per game in his first three seasons. (The others are Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, and Grant Hill.) Not bad statistically - especially considering NEITHER Jordan nor Isaiah were able to average 15/5/5 their first three years. And since statistics and intangibles are directly related, he must be pretty fundamentally sound as well/
"Steve Francis is fundamentally sound"............................Wow Juugie. You've outdone yourself with that one.
Are you going to sit there a honstly TRY to attempt to compare Francis's statstiscs to JORDAN, Isiah, Magic and Oscar!? Are you kidding!? I can bring out some stats on Jordan/Oscar/Isiah that will burry Francis!!!! Let's forget about the rings for a second.... Did you know that in Jordan first year he averaged... 28.2 PPG, .515 FG%, .845 FT%, 5.9 APG, 6.5 RPG? Psstttt...in 1987-88 he averaged 35 PPG! Best year in assist? That was 88-89: 8.0 APG! "Became the fourth NBA player to average at least 15 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists per game" And spare me with the 15/5/5....please....What? Next year it will be "Became the fourth NBA player to average at least 14 points, 4 rebounds, and 4 assists per game?" Last year it was "Became the fourth NBA player to average at least 21 points, 6 rebounds, and 6 assists per game." Let me show you what you are over looking.... Just because Francis achieves,15/5/5 does NOT mean that it's equal to Magic Johnson or Oscar. That's what you are trying to say. You are spinning the stats in order to encompass the total effectiveness of that player. Here's a little bit about Oscar you might not know about... "Robertson captured the 1964 NBA MVP Award with impressive numbers, 31.4 ppg, 11.0 apg and 9.9 rpg, but the "Big O's" best statistical season came in 1961-62. Oscar averaged a triple double for the entire season, averaging 30.8 ppg, 11.4 apg and 12.5 rpg, a feat that has never been duplicated. Robertson concluded his career with 26,710 points (25.7 per game), 9,887 assists (9.5 per game) and 7,804 rebounds (7.5 per game). Oh, and achieved while maintaining a .485 FG%. Now, are you going to honestly try to compare 15/5/5 to 25/9.5/7.5? Oh, and if they kept tunover stats, I'd give you those too. I would say that it would be hard to believe that Oscar was turnover prone. Anyone have turnover stats on Oscar? How about Magic? Hmmm, .520 FG%, .848 FT%, 7.2 RPG, 11.2 APG, 19.5 PPG. Again, that's not the same as 15/5/5 with .40 FG%, 5 APG, and 5 RPG. Putting aside the 3.7 TOPG. Let's not go into intangibles like leadership and court vision. I don't think you want to go there.
Everyone is making some interesting points.. but im tired of this "who can piss further Yao or SF3 debates" they are getting old. Right now Yao is our future.. but I dont think he can do it by himself, like how Shaq and Dream didnt do alone either. SF3 is becoming a more complete player and is working on his all around game. So people please relax and just enjoy the game I think we are in for a big suprise the send half. J
Why cannot we have two franchise player instead of one? Lakers has Shaq and Kobe. Of course PJ might try to build the team around Shaq, but Kobe is their fan favorite. And I don't see that you can win the big one unless you have more than one star player. The Spurs might be an exception, but I consider both Ginobli and Parker as players close to star player caliber, and they had Robinson.
You hit it. When Yao is choked, what I want most is Steve driving to the basket with acrobatic layup to score or to get free throws.
You said that Francis has not been good statistcally in his first few years. I countered that arguement. I'm not putting Francis on the level of Jordan, Zeke, or Oscar. Shaq's rookie year, he averaged 23.4 points, 13.9 rebounds and 3.53 blocks a game. Yao's rookie year, 13.5 points, 8.2 rebounds, and 1.79 blocks So by your own definition, Yao is not nearly in Shaq's league. Stats don't lie. By the way, I personally think we need both Yao and Steve playing at a high level to be successful. In fact, I think they both need to be averaging around 20 ppg. DavidS, just admit that you hate Steve and get it over with, but don't try to make it out like the guy hasn't accomplished anything. And before you mention that he didn't make the playoffs, Yao didn't either so I guess they're both big losers.
