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JVG "We left Steve out there stranded on an Island"

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by pgabriel, Feb 10, 2004.

  1. gunn

    gunn Member

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    The reason I asked was because it seemed as though you had not read it, but instead, translated your thoughts in the form of anothers summary, inferring that you had read it. But maybe I am being too overtly judgemental. But as to the reference, Ion the "rhapsode" (reciter) of Homer claimed to know Homer's works because he was the best reciter in all the land. But in fact, as Socrates lesson teaches, Ion did not know Homer's works, he simply recited them. The gist of the lesson was that Ion did not know by knowing first hand. Just because one recites everything about being a charioteer does not mean he would know more about being a driver than the charioteer.

    Steve's comment reminded me of this because he seemed to make this statement because of what he sees around the league and moreso what he thinks is an idealistic trait of a "good team", rather than knowing first hand.
     
  2. rainmaker

    rainmaker Member

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    Good post... to expand...

    It's all about being ready for one of these "game situations," something that JVG should have prepared his team for during a practice.

    "Under 20 seconds left in the game, no timeouts, this is what we are going to do..."

    If a play was called and Steve disobeyed it, then it is all Steve's fault. I'd bench him for something like that.

    But from his quote, it looks like JVG didn't have his team ready for the situation, so the blame is partially on him. It's hard to put the entire blame on Steve. You know what you're getting with him. He needs direction. He has the tendency to dribble around like a headless chicken and not pass the ball to open teammates during regular posessions, so it should not come as a surprise that he'd do the same thing in a pressure situation.

    I guarantee that JVG will prepare the team and we'll see the Rockets run some sort of play the next time they find themselves in this situation.
     
  3. MFW2310

    MFW2310 Member

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    It's funny that you mention it, cuz JVG has blamed himself more than anybody. For example, he said Les should be disappointed with his coach, admitting being outcoached and giving Hubie Brown credit or last night, saying he left Steve stranded on an island. Once again I bring back the issue of selective memory. You remember when he blames Steve but never remember when he blames himself.

    Notice how I didn't criticize Steve for that last play, because quite frankly, I don't know who's fault it is. We don't know if JVG called that play or Steve just decided to pull it out of his ass. If JVG called that play, it's his fault. If Steve winged that play, it's his fault. Pretty simple logic to me.
     
    #143 MFW2310, Feb 11, 2004
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2004
  4. laen21

    laen21 Member

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    QUESTION... how does one go about posting a new topic and have it end up as one of the "Forum Hot Topics" on the left side of CF.net??

    There has been a few times I've had what I considered to be newsworthy, but could never figure out how to start a new thread.

    Also, did anyone else see "Put up or Shut up" last night on ESPN2 around 10PM? David Aldridge said "Don't be surprised if the Sonics try to make a push for Steve Francis." He said they would be willing to give us Ray Allen b/c 1) the Sonics are going nowhere with him, 2) his contract will be up after next season and there is no guarentee he will want to re-sign for a mediocre team like the sonics and 3) they still have "Flip" Murray and Brent Barry.

    Any thoughts on this??
     
  5. thegary

    thegary Member

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    gunn, i think your reaching a bit.
    this is more appropo:

    John Donne (1572-1631), from Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions, Meditation XVII.

    "All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
     
  6. joolut

    joolut Member

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  7. Rockets2K

    Rockets2K Clutch Crew

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    excuse me???????

    Why let past history and what I said cloud your mind?

    think back for a second and see if you can recollect what my position has always been here.

    am I one who calls for the guards heads constantly?
    am I one who constantly blames them for losses?
    am I one who blames them for others mistakes?
    am I not one of the few that preaches patience?

    It is a fact that whatever the play was supposed to be run was not run correctly...but if you would get that Francis chip off your shoulder, and actually read my ENTIRE post...you would see I said that Padgett did not set the pick correctly....it was an ineffective pick.

    Quit seing Francis bashers everywhere you look RR...you should know me better than that by now.

    geeesh :rolleyes:
     
  8. Rockets2K

    Rockets2K Clutch Crew

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    how many times does this need to be said...I would assume that anyone that knows anything about how real basketball is played would know that there WAS NO WAY THAT SA WOULD HAVE SAGGED OFF THEIR MAN TO CUT OFF THE DRIVE FOR 2.

    They would have gladly given Francis a layup....2 points would not have won the game...only a 3 would have done any good(sending the game into OT)....and there was not enough time on the clock to get 2 then foul and then make it back up the court for another shot..the only way they would have had enough time to do that was if we had a timeout to use right after the theoretical free throw shots that would have come after fouling SA..

    then we would have gotten the ball at midcourt....but we didnt have a timeout..therefore...if SF had taken the 2, and then fouled SA...then got the ball back after the FTs....the likelyhood of making it back down the court for another shot was not good.

    and even then...what if they would have made both FTs?
    then we would have been 3 down again..with even less time to make a 3...and against the same vicious SA perimeter D.


    give it a rest...we lost against a superior team...at least they had the heart to fight their way back into the game...it could have been a blowout and we could have never even threatened.
     
  9. joolut

    joolut Member

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    I'll agree with the end of your quote that yes, SA was a superior team, yes, the game was not lost on the last possession, we should have never been that close at the end to begin with. I'll even give you that we should have gone for the three and not the two, but to say what SF did on that play was the best option is absurd. To say that SF driving to the hole would not have drawn any defenders is absurd. We've seen that happen time and time again. In over about 20 years of being a ROX fan, I've seen us win, and get beat by, that exact play at the buzzer. To say that nobody would have gotten open if SF had taken it to the hole is ludicrous. Again, all the EXPERTS voice the exact same sentiments, I don't understand why people can't just see that mistakes were made on that last play and just MOVE ON.
     
  10. bozo

    bozo Member

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    MAAAACCCBBEETTTHHH!!!!


    I get in from work at 1:00 this morning, catch a couple hours sleep .....take time to scan CCnet before heading back out to work....swallow your "Steve left stranded" thing hook, line &" sinker... - Now - just in from work to find out it twas satire....... now I gotta call the guys I told your story to............ ( guess I ain't bozo for nuthin)

    Beautiful...
     
  11. canoner2002

    canoner2002 Contributing Member

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    I think we would have about 8-10 secs left after Spurs' FTs, enough to run a play. All 4 commentators on TNT thought so too.
     
  12. Subliminal Shot

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    You obviously do not know a lot about basketball. The team didn't execute the right play... One pick is not an excuse for THREE people standing still instead of collectively working in motion to develope an open man within 10 seconds. Also, Steve is one of the six to blame (Jeff's bad play call) because he neither made the most out of the pick given or got the ball moving. If you are going to argue something, do it objectively or you look like a friggin' idiot and loose your credability...
     
  13. sackonhead

    sackonhead Member

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    The pic looks like one of those ISO plays we ran last year under Rudy.

    Jeff picked the wrong play. What the heck is Yao doing on the weak-side near the 3 pt. line????

    6 sec's left and you can run a hi-post, screen the defender and kick out to an open shooter or deliver a bounce to a cutter... or put Yao in low post to go for a 2+1...if not available, kick out to a shooter like Cat or JJ or SF.

    JJ was not open. His defender would have closed in on him...the defender is like 4 steps away (Manu G.)...!!!!!

    Steve didn't blow this one...the team did. I hated the ISO plays from last year...you have to move the ball and set moving picks or rotate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



    :eek:
     
  14. ragingFire

    ragingFire Contributing Member

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    And you do? This is hilarious!

    Just go on and draw up your play. Bless us with your knowledge ... I am waiting ...
     
  15. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    OK, after playing the clip again and again, here's my .02.

    At 11.7, Steve at about mid court on the left. Mobley was wide open at the arch on the right. A long bounce pass to Cat for a open 3 would be a good choice.

    At 9.9, after the initial failed pick, Steve was momentarily double teamed, leaving Padgett open at the top. A quick pass to Padgett for a 3 would be a good choice.

    At 7.7, when Steve was driving toward the lane, Yao's man was sagging off to the hoop while Yao was all alone at the corner just inside the 3pt line. A few more step to the basket would draw the center more away from Yao and Yao would be wide open for a 3 from the corner.

    At 6.1 (the posted picture), JJ was sort of open. There was enough space to pass to JJ (contrary to those who think it would be broken up by Manu). However, JJ might not have enough space to shoot after catching the ball for Manu would certainly recover and get into his face. But that shot would have been at least better than Francis' final shot.

    At 3.5, JJ came back toward the top and was open. But Francis was dribbling to the right and couldn't see him.

    At 3.2, Mobley's man was coming up to double on Steve, leaving Mobley wide open at the corner behind Yao. A pass to Cat would give him a wide open shot with about 1 second left.

    There were 6 opportunities when Francis could have made the pass for a better shot. Granted, 2 of those wasn't that good. There were still 4 very good options throughout the play.

    That said, I agree that it's not totally Steve's fault. JVG should have had a designed play with several options set for this situation. He blamed himself, not the other 4 players, as the thread title seems to suggest.

    When JVG blamed himself "I left Steve stranded on an island" it's the same way parents blame themselves for taking their eyes off of very young children and resulting in an accident. Francis was like a little kid who didn't know what to do in a situation.
     
  16. SmeggySmeg

    SmeggySmeg Member

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    great read Easy completely agree, there were plenty of chances to pass let alone the quick 2 especially after Horry picks him up

    i took the JVG comment as him trying to place the blame on the whole team, rather than just Steve.... good teams lose together not just win together...
     
  17. farhan007

    farhan007 Member

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    :confused: :confused:
     
  18. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Thanks, Easy. I thought Steve had a pass, however brief the window, to Jackson. And I admit looking more at him than the other players you mention. None of that would have been "easy", and JVG may not have designed a good play (we really don't know anything except what JVG said, so I guess we just have to go by that), but Francis could have been quicker in his decision making. Part of his problem with that may have been playing all 48 minutes. And for that you have to blame Van Gundy.

    This thread is still going on? For 6 pages? I was wondering about it, but I assumed it was just a big argument between a couple of folks. Guess I was only partly right. ;)
     
  19. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    According to the pick as posted, for those who say JJ wasn't open, I disagree.


    But...if you assume that Ginobli can get there, two words: bounce pass.

    No way on earth Manu gets to the ball as it comes off the floor to JJ, or gets to it mid -way AND reaches down to intercept.

    It was do-able.
     
  20. Rocketman03

    Rocketman03 Member

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    I agree with you....everyone was standing still...and what good would a 2 be..when u needed a three! My opinion, Francis had no other choice than to shoot. Cant blame Francis for losing the game...what if he made the three...think about it!
     

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