Your opinion. Not mine. Wrong again. You haven't proven as much as humanly possible that Yao is more consistent. Perhaps in your world. Looking at average rebounds and points and their standard deviations doesn't prove that. Again, you almost have an argument if you include blocks, steals, assists. Both deserve credit and Miller has been improving his assists as his career has continued. Most teams don't count on their center for steals, but you ignore the stat when looking at a player's overall game. I never said that Miller was more consistent at blocks or blocked more shots. I said overall more consistent. That includes assists. Yao 1.4 vs. Miller 4.7 I disagree with your methodology. You can't just ignore January's stats. If you don't ignore January's stats, you'll see that Yao shot more than Cat per minute. I wasn't doing that and even if you do, you should also ignore the rest of Yao's stats. Yes. In general the guards have the ball more than other players. Kobe and Payton when healthy have the ball in their possession more than Shaq and Karla. Why are you using Fisher and Walton? Those guys are bench players. (You probably used those guys to skew your points which you always do. Similiar to how you ignored Yao's minutes in January to show that Cat shot more per minute then Yao when he hasn't.) Your explaination for saying.. makes no sense at all. Your explaination doesn't justify calling the girl a skanky white hoe nor does it explain why you called Kobe guilty of rape. So, your reason for stating Kobe is guilty of rape and the girl is a hoe is ______? Just as you have your own opeational parameters. How many posts did it take for you to figure out that you have one opinion and I have another. You've kept saying you "proved" something to me but you never proved a thing to me. Awesome.
Let me introduce you to the term operation parameter, which is something I've learned in Psychology class way back. Here's an example. Let's say we're trying to determine the effects of TV violence on children. We have one group of children that watches violent programs while another doesn't, how do we prove afterwards whether violence improved? Everybody has their own goddam opinion, which without tangible facts to back them up, ARE USELESS. One might say a kid is violent while another might disagree. Instead, we can put a crashtest dummy in the room with a baseball bat and see how many times each kid hits the dummy. THAT THEN, IS CALLED OPERATION PARAMETER. Not all operation parameter is accurate and some are more accurate than others. However, when it comes to stats, SD IS AS CLOSE TO REALITY AS IT IS TO MEASURE CONSISTENCY. You ASSUMED Brad Miller is more reliable and consistent, yet the operation parameter PROVES you false. We can draw from averages and SD that Yao is at least as proficient an offensive player as Brad Miller (not even considering Yao is far more skilled, just using stats alone) and we also know that he's a far more proficient defensive player. As a simple and easy operation parameter, we can simply count the number of altered shots for each player to prove that. Both would show you have no point. Statisticians would tell you that the first thing you do when comparing stats is to REMOVE ALL EXTERNAL FACTORS. So are we to assume that Brad Miller's IQ and BB IQ just increased by 30 and that he's passing abilities has increased. As somebody who watched 22 Kings games this season, I CAN tell you that's NOT the case. I can't exactly prove it without operation parameter, which is why I didn't bother arguing it in the first place. But if we are to use that and give ALL the credit to Brad Miller, then we need to give Houston's great defensive stats to Yao as well. We should say then Houston's league leading defense is because of Yao. We can also say Yao's importance to the Rockets is FAR GREATER Brad Miller's importance to the Kings, as Miller's production is only a minor portion of the Kings offence, whereas Yao's stats ARE A GREAT PORTION of the Rockets defence. Neither is fair, which is neither is used. To not give Yao an unfair advantage over Brad Miller, I even ignored his clear advantage in BPG. Nevertheless, you continue to ASSUME Brad Miller is more efficient. Guards do handle the ball more, but that's because they bring the ball upcourt. In a half court set, throughout history, the big man always gets more opportunity over the equal talented guard. The only case that defies this "law" is the Houston Rockets. Look at Shaq and Kobe, who gets more shots? One is the best big man, one is one of the best 2guards. Who deferred to who? If Yao is the 2nd option, Cat needs to defer to Yao, no ifs and buts about it. A less than 0.6 shot per game difference isn't deferring. Cat plays more minutes, Cat takes more shots, who's the 2nd option? Once again, I call into question your reading comprehension abilities. 1. I did not say Kobe was guilty 2. I said I was using mockery and sarcasm when I called the girl a skany white hoe In the end, if Kobe was guilty, it DOESN'T MATTER if the girl was a skanky white hoe or not. She could have had sex with a guy 5 minutes and another 5 after Kobe, it doesn't matter if she was going to be a gold-digger but pulled back, if she told Kobe no and it still happened, KOBE IS GUILTY, regardless of what she is. This whole race card business is just plain stupid. Once again, I gave you the operation parameter, a very accurate one at that. I have PROVEN, as I said AS MUCH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE that Yao is more consistent. On the other hand, you still haven't and can't give me an operation parameter. Your opinion is then, as they say, WORTHLESS.
Munco quotes: "1) It's not crazy to pick brad miller over shaq if you take into consideration the number of games shaq missed this year. BTW, I haven't twisted people's arguments nor has anyone accused me of that. Others have clearly have misquoted me though. " I can't help to laugh at your stupidity. ROFL....HAHA so what if Shaq missed some games, it's due to his injury, you think that's his fault? so you would pick Miller over Shaq? Shaq just came back from his injury and dropped 37 on Lebron and the Cavaliers..... your belief that Miller should start over Shaq in the All-star is enough evidence for me to believe you are pretty stupid, not me and i pick on you because you pretend to be smart when you are stupid. "I said that if you're going to use standard deviation, you can't just look at points and rebounds. Unless you believe points and rebounds to be the only stats that matter in someone's overall play. I believe you have to account for assists, blocks, steals, etc. No one has created that overall stat and computed the standard deviation from that." Miller is probably more consistent in the assist and rebound category, I admit that. BUT it is due to the Kings play. Rebound wise like I told you, Miller gets a bit more because he does not play center, Vlade does. People charge to shoot layups and not that afraid against Divac and when they miss it is likely Miller or Divac can get the rebound. Against Yao, opponents shoot from 3-point range and jumpers and the ball is far more likely to bounce away from Yao and he will unlikely get the rebound. you want evidence of that? watch some games and that is empirical evidence for you. this change of court situation suggests that Miller is not a better rebounder than Yao but has more to do with the court scenario. you want to talk about assists? Miller benefits from the Kings play...you want evidence of that too? watch some games and compare the Kings IQ to the Rockets IQ and see which teams know what they are doing..that's empirical evidence for you right there. "Again reread the posts. If you account for shots per minute Yao is the #2 option. Also, I don't think shot attempts necessarily accounts for who is the #1, #2, etc. option." SAY WHAT????? number of shots attempted does not necessarily acount for who is #1, #2, etc.. option? HAHAHA. ROFL!!! what an idiot! sure the team does want Yao to be #1 option. sure the team tries to throw the ball to Yao, but he gets doubled-tripled team and he has to kick it out. Francis and Mobley attempt more shots. and wait a minute.....you just now told me that if i account for shots per minute Yao is #2 option....so you are saying that if I account for shots per minute Yao is #2 in attempted shots, which will make him the #2 option right? WELL I THOUGHT YOU JUST SAID THAT NUMBER OF SHOTS ATTEMPTED DOES NOT NECESSARILY ACCOUNT FOR WHO IS #1, #2 OPTION? IDIOT!!! AND HOW CONVENIENT FOR YOU TO IGNORE WHAT I SAID ABOUT STANDARD DEVIATION AND CONSISTENCY. YOU HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG THAT STANDARD DEVIATION DOES NOT PROVE CONSISTENCY, YET I TOLD YOU THAT IT IS WIDELY USED BY THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY AS A MEASURE OF CONSISTENCY AND TO SENSE ANYTHING OUT OF THE NORM. YOU DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO DISPUTE THAT. HAHA
You've used various stats to try to make your point and I countered them with other stats. You've made a worse case than I have. Again, I argued that you've only looked at the average of pts and rebounds to standard deviation. What about the other stats. You can't only account for rebounds and points. A player's overall consistency is not only measured by looking at the standard deviation of points and rebounds. You haven't done that. Again points and rebounds. Where's the other stats. Miller also averages more rebounds than Yao. Like I said before, I was giving him partial credit. Your the stat maniac not me But once again. Here is the efficiency rating that the NBA tracks: 2003-04 Regular Season Efficiency Rating Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G Player G EFF 1. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves) 48 32.79 2. Elton Brand (Los Angeles Clippers) 34 27.79 3. Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs) 46 27.22 4. Brad Miller (Sacramento Kings) 46 24.30 22. Yao Ming (Houston Rockets) 48 19.75 BTW I never assumed Miller was more efficient. You just changed your rationale. Before you determined who was the 2nd option by number of shots. If you compute shots per minute this year, Yao shoots more. According to that definition Yao is the 2nd option. Way to steal my lines. I've been calling you out for a while. Keep following... See below. Not funny and you did not say that when you said it. Your a horrible comedian. Measuring consistency by rebounds/points average and standard deviation is incorrect. Where are the assists, blocks, etc. you haven't proven a thing still. If makes you feel better, your opinion has proven WORTHLESS to me also.
i can't believe that this thread is still alive and kicking... how can any rocket fan not think Yao is better than Brad Miller. take away peja, divac, and bibby (three great shooter that spread the defense) and double team brad miller night in night out on and off the ball. do you think he'd average anywhere near what Yao is averaging? where will the efficiency be then? Oh and who's a dominant defensive force... Brad Miller? No wait it's Yao. hell if Brad Miller is better than Yao we should just trade Yao for Brad Miller, do you think Sacto would do that? They'd do it in a heartbeat. There is no doubt in my mind who the better player is.
Are you still voting for Grant Hill? So, it's not Shaq's fault that he's always hurt? I'm not laughing at your stupidity, it's quite sad. good for Shaq he played well. I never pretended to be smart, but I am certain you are the stupid one. If you want to use a stat for conistency then come up with one that accounts for pts, rebounds, steals, assists, blocks, etc and calculate the standard deviations and averages. You haven't done that. Like I've said, the stat that you guys keep using only accounts for rebounds and points. Nope. Not necessarily. Yes. I've been arguing that Yao is the #1 or #2 option. MFW called Yao the #3 option. So, either your the idiot or you think MFW is an idiot on this one. Barking up the wrong tree on this one buddy. BTW, when you say "what an idiot!", who are you talking to? Are people on the board listening to you? Or perhaps you are typing the dialogue that you and your friend are having or something like that? Or maybe you are talking to yourself. Once again, you're not following the thread. I was simply disproving MFW's argument using his logic. I don't think number of shots proves who is the #1, 2, or 3 option, but if you were to use it...you'd find out that Yao is NOT #3 which was the point MFW was trying to make. This time your the idiot. I didn't dispute it because I don't disagree that standard deviation is the most widely used measure of consistency. My major dispute has been the use of standard deviation of rebounds/points as the measure consistency. You have to account for other stats, such as assists, blocks, etc.
alright... all i'm saying is if being an all star is about who's the better player, then it's Yao. if being an all star is about who's more valuable to their team, then think about it this way. Yao plays for the Kings, Miller plays for the Rox. Kings are better, the Rox are a crappy team. How about that?
OK let's see what's going on here. I'll give you the assist part. Brad Miller gets more dimes HANDS DOWN. He also holds a slight edge in in steals. But Yao is the more prolific rebounder (especially using your favorite per minute stat). His scoring and BPG also blows Brad Miller out of the water, getting MUCH more in about 6 - 7 less minutes. Their per minute stat is NOT EVEN CLOSE. So Miller is ahead in 2 stat categories and Yao is ahead in 3. I and Shrimpie have also shown you that Yao brings it more often. So how is Miller the more consistent player again? How jumped through hoops after another yet it still haven't changed the fact that you have no point. I won't even bother arguing the flaws of the efficiency rating. I'll just say there's a reason SD is the most credible stat for consistency. It is also damn hard to calculate if we are doing it by hand (hell, it's even hard just to punch all the numbers into excel). So Shrimpie was very nice to have done that for us. Yet instead of using the stat every statistician or scientist would happily accept 99% of the time, you just chose to toss it out. OK, let's use your efficiency. Miller plays quite a few minutes, get more numbers, which equals more efficiency. Just which part of that is so hard to understand? I'm also fascinated that you use the per minute stat on everything else yet uses the per game stat on efficiency, when it suits you. How about using the fact that Yao and Miller's efficiency are virtually the same PER 48 MINUTES? Who is the one manipulating stats? You tell me. Btw, Elton Brand's efficiency AND per 48 min efficiency is the 2nd highest in the league after KG, why isn't he an all-star reserve over Brad Miller? You are truly pathetic. I didn't change my rationale. I used shots per game, touches and time of possession to determine the 2nd option, you told me to use shots per minute to prove who's the second option. I have yet to hear any basketball analysts ANYWHERE use shots per minute as a determinant of who's the 2nd option. But then of course, if you don't accept SD, I didn't expect you to accept basketball common sense either. The whole Kobe deal, I wasn't going to say it, you told me to. I don't really care if it was a bad joke or not, because I am not here to entertain you. If that was what you were looking for you came to the wrong place. Gee here's an idea, I'll go to a basketball forum for comedy. Let's see: 1. Yao is better in 3 stat categories, Miller in 2 2. Yao's efficiency per 48 is virtually the same as Miller, who benefits from being on the better team (take out his assists and put in his number from last year, he'd be worthless) 3. Yao is far better defensively 4. Yao' the more skilled player 5. Yao's more consistent by SD AND averages 6. Yao's more popular 7. ~50% AMERICAN fans think Yao should start 8. YOU ASSUME MEASURING STATS BY AVERAGES AND SD IS INCORRECT, WHERE NO STATISTICIAN DARE TO SAY SO 9. YAO IS ALSO MORE EFFICIENT IF YOU USE MEDIAN AND MODE AS WELL. Who's opinion is worthless? The only thing that makes your opinion even more worthless is your pathetic attempt to defend it.
It's hard to get through to someone with such a low basketball IQ. The fact that munco even considers Miller as a Center just because it says so in the ballot tells you a lot.
I really admire your patience Honestly, I hope you can get your message acrossed. However, honestly, I don't think you can achieve that.
I hate to say it also, but Brad Miller deserves it more so than Yao. Brad is giving a complete stat line every night and has also given out 2 Triple Doubles. Yao is not there yet...as a player only a fan favorite
People, I hear you, everybody in the world can hear you. Your one vote for Brad has now been counted. Now get over it and move on.
Since I stuck up for coach when nobody did, it only seems fair I stick up for everybody on this team when credit is due.
