Once again, the standard deviation proves your assumption false. Before you can find some tangible facts to prove your case, why don't both of us just give it a draw, a wash. If you don't trust in empirical data, I don't know what to say to you. Chicago WAS a horrendous team, which is why I used Brad Miller's 2001 - 2002 stats. I could easily have used his 2000 - 2001 stats and compared it to his Kings stats, yet I didn't. Fact is, Miller played 48 games that season in Chitown, 28 in Indy, where he moved from a lousy team to a good team, yet improved his stats SIGNIFICANTLY. You said Miller has no opportunity because of Jermaine O'Neal, I proved you wrong. I guess you should also look up the records. 2 seasons ago, the Kings played to a 745 winning percentage with Webber out for about 30 games, as again, I've stated already. I wouldn't argue the Kings are probably better with Miller instead of only a now 50 yr old Divac, but if you assume the Kings are just going to roll over and die without him, you are dead wrong. Yao takes the 3rd most shots on the Rockets. He gets bashed more for taking bad shots than Cuttino Mobley. That makes him the 3rd option on the team. I'm not arguing with you what Yao is or isn't. I've been pretty clear in my post in the past that I'm not impressed with what Yao is doing now, as what he can do in the future. I do not think Yao is a star player yet, so if you want to argue he's a scrub (even though that would be wrong), go right ahead. But I do want to point out: if Yao is a scrub, yet Brad Miller is not as good a player from a skill point of view, nor is he as important to his team, then what does that make Brad Miller? Essentially you have just proved my point. The whole Vince Carter debate, every player in the ASG gets voted in by popularity. Most of them just happens to be skilled. While some of them are skilled but not voted in (Shaq). Others are unskilled yet get voted in (Steve). But in the most cases the players that get voted in are the best or second best available choice. You acknowledge Vince's popularity yet you do not acknowledge his skill, despite the fact that I showed you that you were contradicting your own points. From a subjective yet pretty much common held belief, Vince Carter IS better than Paul Pierce and Ron Artest, with Vince just happens to put up great numbers and helping his team win. Is that point (and therefore the ASG starter) debatable? Absolutely. Is this point dismissable? Absolutely not.
Munco, first of all you freakin weird... you say yao is a favorite player and you would pick yao over miller like you said earlier.....and yet goes to great strengths to argue miller is more consistent over yao and would vote for miller....WHAT THE........didn't you just say you would pick yao over miller......HAHA stop contradicting yourself. Yao gets double-tripled team sometimes even without the ball and still scores more on average. Miller probably gets more rebound because of the court situation. Yao stands there and his opponents are far less likely to take layups and close shots and take 3-pointers and jumpers. when they miss, the ball bounces away from the rim which makes it a lot harder to get the rebound. Miller's assists are overrated...he's playing on the kings....everybody knows how to pass in that team and know what to do with the ball. and yes Yao is a better passer....i don't see Miller doing that stuff. and for the All-Star Center position: 1)Shaquille O'Neal 2)Yao Ming 3)Brad Miller......i don't know why they put him at center position.....STUPID, but if have to pick a center, he's third.
It's not that I don't trust empirical data. I think it can be used as an aid to make a point. However, using average rebounds/points and their standard deviations does not prove a players consistency. At the very least the calculation should look at other stats such as assists, steals, blocks, etc. also, i don't believe you've ever addressed this... do you think using average rebounds and points and comparing them to standard deviations is a better way to measure consistency then what i proposed? (First account for all the major stats, then weight them, and then come up with an overall score. Next compute the standard deviation and compute the normalized average). in any case i don't believe consistency can necessarily be measured entirely by stats, but if I were to do it ... I definitely would not use Shrimpie's method (the method you've agreed with in past posts). Several things... -I said, "an argument could also be made that Brad Miller also did not put up as strong numbers last year because he was not the primary low post option (to counter that he should of put up better numbers since he was not attracting as much attention)." I was not stating that was "my" argument. I was trying to make the point that these things can be argued to those that think everything is black and white or proven statistically. -In any case I never said that Miller "has no opportunity" because of Jermaine O' Neal. Please stop misquoting me. I did say that Miller was not the primary low post scoring option in Indy. I don't believe they'd roll over and die, but they are much better with Miller and the West in general seems to be better this year. Yao is not the third option. Are you only reading the stat lines and not watchin the games? It seems as though you think the guy that takes the most shots is automatically the first option. I don't think this is always the case, but if you do believe that I think you have to account for some things that you didn't do. 1) How many minutes does Yao play vs. Steve and Cat? If you computed how many minutes on average it takes them to shoot a shot, you'd see that Yao is #2 in shot attempts. 2) Yao is also fouled more than Steve and Cat. So it's very likely that he gets more shot attempts than what shows up in the box score. I don't think Yao is a scrub nor have i said anything to insuinate that. On the other hand you called Miller a scrub. Please explain how Brad Miller is a scrub. Since when do scrubs don't average 14/10/5. BTW I think they're both very good players and obviously Yao could become a great player. 1) You did not prove I was contradicting my own points. 2) Where am I not acknowledging Vince Carter's skills? You keep puting words in my mouth. When did I not acknowledge Vince Carter's skills? Also, I don't even agree with your notion that it's a common held belief that "Vince Carter IS better than Paul Pierce". Lastly, is it possible for you to post about me without twisting my words or making up things that i said?
quake99, yes i am weird, but i don't think this post proves it. i haven't contradicted myself. i feel miller deserved to be an all-star more than yao, but yao is still my favorite player. if i had to pick a center to have on my team, here's my order 1) yao 2) shaq 3) brad miller if i had to fill out an all-star ballot this year, i'd go 1) brad miller 2/3) shaqyao (i've gone back and forth on this one of late).
First of all, averages is also hardly the judge of consistency. We know Yao averages more points, Miller averages more boards, but we also konw that Miller averages 7 more MPG. So if we are going to use the game averages, obviously it's going to be skewed against Yao. Efficiency is also hardly a consideration as too many factors affects it. THERE IS A REASON SD IS THE MOST ACCURATE TO REFLECT STATS. Think about this. If the Rockets are in the NBA WC Finals against the Kings, 7 game series, who would you rather have more? Yao, who brings his 16 - 18/9 - 10 every game, or Miller, who brings 26/12 in 3 games then completely disappears the other 4. Who's more consistent? Spinmasters would say Miller was "consistently" good in that serious, realists would say he was "consistently" bad as well. So Miller wasn't the primary low post option last year, which was your excuse for him not doing as well. Yet he wasn't primary low post option the year before that either, when he put up his career high PPG. Nor is he the primary low post option this year (freakin' Vlade bangs more down low than he does), as he just stand on the perimeter for open jumpers. Your point about not being the option doesn't hold water. Karl Malone wasn't the primary low post option either, didn't stop him from getting his. This is where you see the difference between a good player (great actually) and a scrub. Good players put up numbers whatever happens. Steve and Cat play 40 MPG, average 15 and 13.5 shots per game respectively, so about 0.38 per min and 0.34 per min. Yao averages 32.5 MPG, shoots 11 shots per game, so about 0.34 per min. I hardly see Yao as the 2nd option, especially considering how the guards control the pace and flow of the game. And no, 2 FT attempts does not equal a shot. If you actually watch Rockets games you'd know how many times Yao get fouled off the ball. Don't argue with me in stats, I always come prepared. You know, it's such an oddity, a fat, slow and overpaid Vin Baker is getting 12/7/2 in ONLY 27 MPG. He's doing even better per min (at least in PPG and boards) than Brad Miller. Does that mean he's a better player? Vin Baker ain't a scrub at all. How about Shandon Anderson? He played great for Utah but then turned scrub after getting the big paycheck and playing for us. How about Bryon Russell? Where is he now? As I've said already, great players make their team better, scrubs get better from their team. I'm also not talking about the 14/10/5 Brad Miller who used a great team to inflate his stats. I'm talking about the Brad Miller that averages 11.1/7.4/2 for his career. It's funny how it only takes one decent season for people to label a player a star. Any way you look at it, Brad Miller is a scrub. My last time arguing the Vince Carter business. You had 2 points trying to prove Brad Miller deserved to start over Yao: 1. stats 2. team record Yet you felt Vince did not deserve to start at all. I showed you Vince has a better team record than Paul Pierce, dismissing your 2nd point. I showed you Vince has better stats than Ronron, dismissing your 1st point. By that I concluded that Vince deserved to start as much as the other two and obviously, other fans agreed. Only you were the one that made it sound as if Vince is doing significantly bad compared to Paul and Ron, therefore does not deserve to start, despite the fact that there is no dispute Vince is the BETTER player living up to your 2 points. That is hypocrisy.
You can't look at standard deviation without looking at averages though. By simply using standard deviation without averages, a guy that scored 2 points and grabbed 2 rebounds every game would have a standard deviation of zero and thus be more consistent. AGAIN, I said, "an argument could also be made that Brad Miller also did not put up as strong numbers last year because he was not the primary low post option (to counter that he should of put up better numbers since he was not attracting as much attention)." I was not stating that was "my" argument. I was trying to make the point that these things can be argued to those that think everything is black and white or proven statistically. Also, if Karl Malone wasn't the primary low post option than who was? Ostertag? Way to skew the stats again MFW. You said that Yao was the third option was Yao because he takes the third most shots on the team. He takes the 2nd most shots on the team if you look at the stats. yao32.5 11.3 0.347692308 steve 39.7 14.9 0.375314861 cat 39.5 13.3 0.336708861 I hardly see Yao as the 2nd option, especially considering how the guards control the pace and flow of the game. And no, 2 FT attempts does not equal a shot. If you actually watch Rockets games you'd know how many times Yao get fouled off the ball.[/QUOTE] Check your stats again. Don't argue with me in stats, I always come prepared.[/QUOTE] You know, it's such an oddity, a fat, slow and overpaid Vin Baker is getting 12/7/2 in ONLY 27 MPG. He's doing even better per min (at least in PPG and boards) than Brad Miller. Does that mean he's a better player? Vin Baker ain't a scrub at all. How about Shandon Anderson? He played great for Utah but then turned scrub after getting the big paycheck and playing for us. How about Bryon Russell? Where is he now? As I've said already, great players make their team better, scrubs get better from their team. I'm also not talking about the 14/10/5 Brad Miller who used a great team to inflate his stats. I'm talking about the Brad Miller that averages 11.1/7.4/2 for his career. It's funny how it only takes one decent season for people to label a player a star. Any way you look at it, Brad Miller is a scrub. My last time arguing the Vince Carter business. You had 2 points trying to prove Brad Miller deserved to start over Yao: 1. stats 2. team record Yet you felt Vince did not deserve to start at all. I showed you Vince has a better team record than Paul Pierce, dismissing your 2nd point. I showed you Vince has better stats than Ronron, dismissing your 1st point. By that I concluded that Vince deserved to start as much as the other two and obviously, other fans agreed. Only you were the one that made it sound as if Vince is doing significantly bad compared to Paul and Ron, therefore does not deserve to start, despite the fact that there is no dispute Vince is the BETTER player living up to your 2 points. That is hypocrisy. [/B][/QUOTE]
You can't look at standard deviation without looking at averages though. By simply using standard deviation without averages, a guy that scored 2 points and grabbed 2 rebounds every game would have a standard deviation of zero and thus be more consistent. BTW, my proposed way of looking at consistency was not efficiency. Please tell me how looking at average rebounds and points and comparing them to standard deviations is a better way to measure consistency then what i proposed? How can you not account for stats such as assists, steals, blocks, etc. when coming up with a stat for consistency? AGAIN, I said, "an argument could also be made that Brad Miller also did not put up as strong numbers last year because he was not the primary low post option (to counter that he should of put up better numbers since he was not attracting as much attention)." I was not stating that was "my" argument. I was trying to make the point that these things can be argued to those that think everything is black and white or proven statistically. Also, if Karl Malone wasn't the primary low post option than who was? Ostertag? Way to skew the stats again MFW. You said that Yao was the third option was Yao because he takes the third most shots on the team. He takes the 2nd most shots on the team if you look at the stats. minutes fga fga/minute yao 32.5 11.3 0.347692308 steve 39.7 14.9 0.375314861 cat 39.5 13.3 0.336708861 So according to your prior logic, Yao is the 2nd option although you stated he was the third. I didn't say that 2 FT attempts equal a shot. I said... "Yao is also fouled more than Steve and Cat. So it's very likely that he gets more shot attempts than what shows up in the box score." My point was that you have to consider that Yao goes to the line more when in the act of shooting. Maybe more than Steve, but I'd say probably more than Cat. You've shown on more than one occassion that you don't present the stats honestly. BTW I'll continue to "argue" with you on stats as long as you continue to misrepresent them. let me just reiterate again that i've been using stats to show you that they can't explain everything like you seem to think. you tried to use stats to prove 1) that yao was more consistent than miller. 2) yao was the 3rd option you haven't proven either through stats and i don't think you can. in fact i've used stats to make the exact opposite points. yet you keep on stating that you've proved these things as if they are fact. Like i've said many times before stats don't tell the whole story, yet you keep trying to pass off stats as the end all. Brad Miller is in the same category as Vin Baker this year? And Brad Miller is a scrub because he doesn't make his team better. I think you're delusional if you think Brad Miller is a scrub and if you think he doesn't make his team better. Why do you think the coaches selected this scrub to the all-start team? WRONG. You're getting things very mixed up now. You and Shrimpie are the ones that have been trying to prove everything with stats. I'm using stats to show the exact opposite points in many cases. My stance from the start has been that stats don't tell the story and that you can't always prove things like Yao is more consistent with only stats. Also I did not make it sound as if Vince was "doing significantly bad" compared to Paul and Ron. I simply said that I "feel" that Paul and Ron would get my vote as all-stars. In summary, here have been my main disagreements with your recent posts: -Using average rebounds/points with their standard deviations does not prove a players consistency -consistency and who deserves to be an all-star can't be proven by stats -Yao is the #3 option -Brad Miller is a scrub -misquoting me -misrpepresenting stats. Again, is it possible for you to post about me without twisting my words or making up things that i said?
First of all, why vote for Miller at Center when he doesn't play most of his minutes at that position? If you were going to vote for him, you should vote for him at PF - his primary position! Also, your argument is based on your "opinion." Like you stated, there is no real stat to measure consistency, so you can bend the other stats however you want to fit your needs. No matter what stats the other fellow posters throw at you, it will never be enough because it is simply your opinion that Miller is more "consistent" than Yao. And you make it seem like Miller's stats are way better than Yao's - it is not. Like I said before, you can argue both ways for which player has better offensive stats. Miller does have more assists that Yao - but that's because when he passes out to Bibby and Peja, they shoot right away. If they make it, it's an assist. When Yao passes out to francis or mobley, instead of shooting, they'd hold onto the ball for 5 secs (the stare-down), and then shoot off the dribble which costs Yao some potential assists. I think that Yao deserves it more because he means more to the Rockets than Miller does to the Kings. The Rockets will not be in the running for the playoffs without Yao, but the Kings are still a good team if they hadn't signed Miller. Yao also has more of an impact on the game because of his defense - much more than does Miller. Oh yeah, and did I forget to mention that Miller should not be voted in as a Center? Because he didn't not play enough minutes at that position!
Let's look at BOTH the SD and averages. Brad Miller puts up about the same average DESPITE playing more minutes. SD also proves that his stats fluctuate more than Yao's stats. So... what's your argument again? It's NOT that Brad Miller is putting up 14.1/10.8 every game, it's that he's putting up 25/15 one game then completely disappear in another. It also says he averages less PPG, less BPG and only slightly more RPG, so how do YOU deduce from the stats Brad Miller is more consistent? I did take in assists, steals and blocks into consideration, if I didn't, Brad Miller would be a even bigger scrub. Ask you this, why is it that in Brad Miller's fairly long career, he wasn't able to put up better numbers, yet when he comes on the Kings, he's putting career highs in virtually every category? Your Karl Malone point... WRONG. Malone was the primary low post option last year in Utah, where he averaged 20.8/7.8. This year, he saw he's shots per game reduced from 15.5 to about 9.7 (where as Brad Miller's shots stayed the same), yet he's still giving 14 PPG in less minutes, shot a higher percentage and actually improved his boarding and BPG. Ask the Faker fans who was the most important reason for the Lakers' great start and they'll tell you KARL FREAKIN' MALONE (despite Shaq Kobe and co). He went from one of the most hated in the league to one of their favorite Fakers. Are you going to keep a straight face and tell me Brad Miller had less chances than Karl Malone in the post, where Shaq hogs all the shots? Or that Indy last year had as many options as Fakers early this year? What's more, the Lakers are not like the Kings, where everybody share their shots. On the Lakers it's all me: Shaq wants more shots, Kobe wants more shots, GP wants more shots and Karla gets less shots. Of course, if you actually watched the Kings games you'd know Brad Miller wasn't even playing in the post. The 50 yr old Divac is. Sad. I did not skew stats, I rounded them off. I rounded Steve's shots per game to 15, Cat's to 13 and Yao about 11. I was well aware that Steve shoots ever so slightly under 15, Cat a bit more than 13 or Yao a hair over 11. I also rounded Steve and Cats mins to 40 despite them being slightly less (which would actually be your favor because it will lower their shots per min). I as well rounded Yao's mins to 32 which once again is in your favor because it will increase Yao's shot per min. You can argue that my stat was not as precise as they can be but you can't argue that I skewed them (unless you want to show your ignorance). Even if you assume I did skew them, I did it in your favor, so I don't know what your point is. What does it say about your 2nd option (by your definition) if he takes less shots per game. What does it say about your 2nd option when he averages less than 0.012 per min. I can't believe I'm even bothering to argue about shots per min, as a 0.012 difference in a 48 min game (assume both players play all 48) results in a less than 0.6 SPG difference (if you assume they make it, a 1 point difference). Even if you assume it's THAT important, look at the details. Prior to this month's spurt by Yao (in which he became what I rightfully call the DUH option), he was averaging 10 - 10.5 SPG. Divide that by your 32.5 MPG you get 0.3230769... (following your accuracy), which incidenty is less than Cat. Where as during the same period, Cat's shots actually decrease compared to his average. Now that Yao's run has ended, Yao is once again taking less shots while Cat bricks more. Take the average between your 0.347692308 and Yao's old 0.3230769... (which would be false, because Yao average far more games with the less shot average) you would get about 0.335384604, ie. less than Cat's 0.336708861. We're not even taking into consideration who has the ball in their hands more (which would be Cat). So who's the 2nd option again? How convenient it is for you to argue Brad Miller is not a scrub by ignoring his previous stats, which incidently was when Vin Baker excelled. Let me just remind you that before he got fat, he WAS the better scorer and he WAS the better rebounder. This season, DESPITE being fat and old, he still IS the better scorer, he still IS the better rebounder. Without the APG stat and using your favorite efficiency to determine consistency, Baker would blow Miller out of the water. Why did the coaches select a scrub to be an all-star? Last year the EC's top 2 was Big Ben and Big Z. Ben being not even an actualy 5. Which other EC center would you select? Eddy Curry? A 6th year 5 that averaged less than Yao in his rookie year being selected to the ASG is a joke. It just shows how few good 5's there are left. Btw, did you know Vin Baker was NBA all-rookie team, 3rd all-NBA team, 4 time all-star and Dream Team member? But he's a scrub but Brad Miller is not. In response to your summary. 1. I have proven that using BOTH averages AND SD that Yao is more consistent. If you have any arguments, please state any way shape or form how this would show Yao is less consistent. It doesn't take a Stat major to do this, a simple book would suffice. 2. Then how do we determine who should be an all-star? How about Bill Walton selecting Yao cuz he has a boner for him, Steve Kerr selecting Miller cuz he's white, Kenny Smith selecting Steve cuz he's an ex Rocket, Tom Tolbert selecting Malone cuz they're both bald and I'm sure we can find some analyst who select Kobe cuz they've both raped some hoe. 3. Proven to be true 4. Also proven to be true 5. Perhaps you should explain better then 6. I have yet to find an idiot who uses 9 decimal digits for an useless stat like shots per min, especially when 2 would suffice. So if I was guilty of misrepresenting stats, the US government is also guilty (and therefore, illegal) for misrepresenting its GDP. But that's hardly a surprise either way.
MFW, my point was that if you're going to use SD and averages you have to account for stats other than just points and rebounds. I still don't think you've answered my question: Tell me how looking at average rebounds and points and comparing them to standard deviations is a better way to measure consistency then what i proposed (accounting for stats such as assists, steals, blocks, etc. when coming up with a stat for consistency)? You took them into account? That's funny you were using the points/rebounds averages with standard deviation and you stated that those stats proved yao was more consistent. You did not account for assists, steals, blocks, etc. I thought you were referring to Karl as when he was with the Jazz and not as a Laker. That should be clear to you considering I talked about Greg Ostertag. Rounding off stats can skew them, which was the case when you did that. You tried "proving" Yao was the 3rd option because Cat and Steve shot more, your "rounded" numbers showed Yao and Cat shooting the same number of shots. My numbers which did not round showed that Yao was shooting more than Cat. Therefore, your rounding helped your case and not mine. That is skewing the numbers. You're the one that's been preaching that stats "prove" Yao is more consistent. I'm trying to use your logic that stats can prove who is the 3rd option, which of course it can't. I've said this from the start, stats can't prove everything (see consistency, 1st option, etc.), but for some reason you seem to think they can. I didn't say Vin or Miller was a scrub. I'm also not trying to prove efficiency or consistency with stats. You're the one that's stood by the stats. We're talking about the Western Conference. Is Erick Dampier a scrub too? Also, if you assume that Shaq was selected as the backup Center by the coaches, Brad Miller was selected for one of the open positions thus beating out guards and forwards. Again, thanks for putting words in my mouth. When did I say Vin Baker was a scrub? You haven't proven squat to me. Average rebounds and points compared to their standard deviations does not show consistency. The key word is "proven". You can't prove it because at the end of the day it's an opinion. For some reason you can't seem to get that into your head. I think Brad Miller deserves to be an all-star over Yao. You haven't changed my mind. How have you proven that Yao is the third option? You've proven it to yourself, but not to me and I'm sure many of the people on this bbs don't feel that way either. Is it a fact? Your case was that Yao was the third option based on his getting the 3rd most shots on the team. That's some great logic especially without accounting for minutes played and free throws. Definitely not true. You definitely did not prove that Brad Miller is a scrub. I think you might be alone on this one too. Any NBA fan would recognize that Brad Miller is not a scrub. You can argue he's not a star, but he's no scrub. I said you keep misquoting me. As in you've quoted me as saying things I never did. No explanation is needed when you're quoting. You used rounded off stats to show that Yao got less shots than Cat. I didn't and it showed that Yao in fact got more shots than Cat. In any case, you're the one that's been trying to use and manipulate your case. Lastly, your comments about Kobe and the alleged rape were completely classless. There was no need for that and it was pointless! And thanks for calling me an idiot. I don't get personal on these bulletin boards, I just like to have a good discussion.
without a clear definition of consistency based on scientific facts, there's no point continuing arguing because no conclusion will be reached. opinion's like ***hole. everybody's got one. I can claim Shawn Bradley is more consistent than Yao Ming based on my own definition of consistency and it's impossible for others to prove me wrong.
OK, then what is your definition of consistency? You have an opinion that Brad Miller is more consistent yet you can't define the parameters. I have proven as much as humanly possible and without a doubt statistically that Yao is more consistent. Yet you THINK he's more consistent and you THINK he should start over Yao. Why don't you share with us what you define as consistent? Let's look at the 3rd option thing again. I showed you Yao takes less shots per game, and you weren't happy with that. So you insists on using shots per min, even though I have proven that given his minutes, Yao would would average less than 0.6 more shots per game. I have also proven to you that Yao's adjusted shots per min (ASPM) is lower than Cat. I can if you want, also show you that Cat gets more touches and has the ball in his possession more. Still think Yao's the 2nd option? OK, so I rounded off shots per game to an entire shot, so sue me. Even though you can't take 0.3 shots per game without using an average, but whatever. Let's look at the ASG. The starting lineup was voted in by the fans, so there's no point to debate. The reserves include 1 at each position (5 total) and then 2 more reserves. Shaq was the reserve 5, Dirk the 4, AK was supposed to be 4 but he was chosen as the 3, but whatever. So Brad Miller couldn't have been chosen as the reserve at his position but the 2 which can be any position. So you are telling me Brad Miller deserves to play in the ASG more than Brand and Dampier, both of which are putting up WAY better stats and deserves to play over Spree, who's both putting up better stats and have the same team record? I should also point out that Flip Saunders also picked Ray Allen over Michael Finley, even though Allen played less than half the games. The Kobe comment was not classless, it was a mockery. I won't bother explaining why I said it because I don't want to poke the racial issue hornets nest. But be assured that I said it with good reasons. I am well aware that stats is far from complete and in fact can be manipulated. However, if you are going to argue with cold hard facts and stats, you better have a pretty damn good argument. In this case you have none.
Here was my definition of a consistent player from a prior post in response to you... To me a consistent player is someone that you can count on to give you reliable, steady numbers and effort. Those are my parameters. You haven't proven a thing except that you don't account for assists, steals, blocks in computing stats for consistency. I showed you that Yao takes the 2nd most shots per game if you look at it on a per minute basis. You said that # of shots determined who was the first, second, third option. According to your theory, Yao should be the 2nd option but you claim he's the third. BTW how did you show Yao's adjusted shots per minute is lower than Cat's? It's the other way around. If you do it on a per minute basis Yao shoots more. He also gets fouled more. Guards tend to have the ball in their hands on most teams. I still think Yao is not the third option. You missed my point. I was asking why you thought Brad Miller was picked by the coaches for one of the 2 spots that can be any position if if he was such a scrub. You haven't given a reason. I still think your quote is classless and I'd love to hear your rationale for saying... If you reread your posts you'll realize that you've been stating that stats are complete and fact. You started by using that rebounds/points/std. deviation stat and saying you had proven I was wrong and you keep saying that you have proven me wrong with different stats. Therefore, you have shown that you are NOT aware that stats are "far from complete and in fact can be manipulated". BTW I think my stats were more conclusive to start with especially since your leading stat to argue consistency doesn't account for anything outside of points and rebounds. Also, I still don't think you've answered my question: Tell me how looking at average rebounds and points and comparing them to standard deviations is a better way to measure consistency then what i proposed (accounting for stats such as assists, steals, blocks, etc. when coming up with a stat for consistency)? Thanks for not calling me an idiot on this poiint and only slightly twisting my words this time.
"if i had to fill out an all-star ballot this year, i'd go 1) brad miller 2/3) shaqyao (i've gone back and forth on this one of late)" ROFL AT MUNCO. STUPID. HAHA BRAD MILLER OVER SHAQ???!!!!!! ROFL......what an idiot for real no wonder you're so dull-headed when ppl give you arguments and you twist them around and b.s. you're picking Brad Miller over the most dominant player(Shaq) for the all-star position? HAHA YOU JUST LOST YOUR RIGHT TO HAVE YOUR OPINION TAKEN SERIOUSLY and hell yeah standard deviation measures consistency. Yao averages more, and his scores fluctuates lesser than Miller which indicates Yao is more consistent. i'm starting to doubt if you know the definition of standard deviation. ppl who know statistics and math know that standard deviation is the best objective way to measure consistency. Scientists use averages and standard deviations all the time to measure data consistency and the odds of something happening out of the norm. STANDARD DEVIATION AND AVERAGE USED TO PROVE CONSISTENCY HAS BEEN PROVEN VALID FOR MANY YEARS. IT IS ESTABLISHED AMONG THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY AND USED ACROSS MANY DISCIPLINES FROM BIOLOGY TO ASTRONOMY. IT IS THE STANDARD, THAT'S WHAT YOU SUPPOSE TO USE, YOU GOT THAT? SO USELESS YOU CAN PROVE TO THE WHOLE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY THAT STANDARD DEVIATION FLUCTUATING FROM THE AVERAGE DOES NOT MEASURE CONSISTENCY, THEN YOU NEED TO BE QUIET it's also funny you reject standard deviation and averages, and yet you use efficiency, which is another scientific method. you want to talk about rebounds? Miller might be able to get more rebounds than yao because: Yao changes the situation on the court, his size and presence forces opponents to shoot from outside and when they miss the ball usually bounces away pretty far and you think Yao can run that far to get it? Miller by contrast does not even play center and you think ppl are that scared against Divac? opponents are more likely to charge to the hoop against the kings, and when they miss layups it is less likely to fly all the way back to the 3-point line and more likely Divac or Miller can pick the rebound. so what miller has more assists? he plays with the kings, what do you expect? kings move around and they play smart and know what to do unlikely the rockets sometimes......with boneheaded charged into 5 ppl francis and cutturnover. and yao is a better passer anyways. i don't see miller doing those type of passes yao can do.... and Yao is #3 option, even though jeff van gundy wants him to be #1 option. it is proven already. so what if MFW measures it to one shot, Yao still is #3 in number of shots attempted in his team. response for johnty: "without a clear definition of consistency based on scientific facts, there's no point continuing arguing because no conclusion will be reached." standard deviaton and average is a scientific method for consistency. "opinion's like ***hole. everybody's got one." some opinions are intelligent and justified and some opinions are unjustified and stupid. unfortunately, not everybody's opinion is equal....just like Munco, who said that he would vote Miller over Shaq/Yao.....come on even over SHAQ??!!! "I can claim Shawn Bradley is more consistent than Yao Ming based on my own definition of consistency and it's impossible for others to prove me wrong. " ROFL...Shawn Bradley is more consistent than Yao Ming if your definition of consistency is who is more consistent being a truly suck player
1) It's not crazy to pick brad miller over shaq if you take into consideration the number of games shaq missed this year. BTW, I haven't twisted people's arguments nor has anyone accused me of that. Others have clearly have misquoted me though. also, i'm glad you had to get personal too. although i think your quote above makes you look like a far bigger idiot than me. Reread the posts. You missed the point again. I said that if you're going to use standard deviation, you can't just look at points and rebounds. Unless you believe points and rebounds to be the only stats that matter in someone's overall play. I believe you have to account for assists, blocks, steals, etc. No one has created that overall stat and computed the standard deviation from that. Again reread the posts. If you account for shots per minute Yao is the #2 option. Also, I don't think shot attempts necessarily accounts for who is the #1, #2, etc. option.
So how did you determine Brad Miller is more consistent by your definition? Averages and SD are the ONLY ways to measure consistency by your definition (ie. brings it every night). It shows that: 1. Yao brings more every night except dimes 2. Yao brings it more often, as Miller will be there one night and completely disappear another If you use that as your argument that Brad Miller is more reliable, just have just lost all credibility. I have said AND RIGHTFULLY SO that I have proven AS MUCH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE that Yao is more consistent. So you want to take in assists, blocks and steals. 1. Brad Miller is averaging 2APG for his career, suddenly he averages 4.7 in Sacramento. Who deserves the credit, Miller for making those AMAZING PASSES (which I've personally seen none), or Bibby, Peja, etc for getting open? Miller doesn't deserve the ASG for it, the Kings teamplay does. 2. Does Yao's 0.27 or Brad Miller's 0.71 makes a difference in a game? Suppose their teams convert off the turnover, the Rockets will score 0.54 points and the Kings 1.42. That an earthshaking amount of points, except the Kings only score 104.7 of them per game. Which team do you know counts on their center for steals? The Fakers fans are gonna say we count on Shaq to get 2 steals per game? Why do you think why they talk about 20/10/2 for a center it's points/board/blocks and not points/steals/blocks? 3. Let me get this straight. Yao averages MORE BLOCKS per game in 6 - 7 less minutes. He therefore averages MORE BLOCKS PER MIN by your definition. Yet he's LESS CONSISTENT in blocks than Brad Miller? Do you really know what you're talking about? You also need to learn to read. I said the following: "Prior to this month's spurt by Yao (in which he became what I rightfully call the DUH option), he was averaging 10 - 10.5 SPG. Divide that by your 32.5 MPG you get 0.3230769... (following your accuracy), which incidenty is less than Cat. Where as during the same period, Cat's shots actually decrease compared to his average. Now that Yao's run has ended, Yao is once again taking less shots while Cat bricks more. Take the average between your 0.347692308 and Yao's old 0.3230769... (which would be false, because Yao average far more games with the less shot average) you would get about 0.335384604, ie. less than Cat's 0.336708861." Basically the gist of it is (I didn't think I had to ever repeat myself on quite an obvious point to a grown adult, but whatever), before the January spurt by Yao, Cat WAS taking more shots per minute, because Yao was only averaging about < 10.5 shots per game and he did that for about 28 - 30 games. Then he had that spurt where he was averaging like 14 - 15 per game (and rightfully so), which brough his average up. Now that he's cooled off, he's once again averaging less per min than Cat. I adjusted it by assuming he played the same amount of games at each average. This is in your favor as Yao played far MORE games with less shots. What I should have done is taken a weighted average which I was too lazy to do. But even with this assumption, Yao's ASPM is still less than that off Cat. So what was your point? Guards handle the ball more? So you think Shaq and Karla gets the ball less than Fisher and Walton? KG gets the ball less than Spree? Dirk gets the ball less than Finley? The fact that Yao gets the ball less than Cat already proves that at least in our guards mind, Yao is the 3rd option. You asked for the Kobe business, you shall receive. Remember couple years ago with all that OJ business? OJ was in all likelyhood, guilty. Then that scumbag detective planted some bad fake evidence (hey, if you're gonna plant, at least make it less obvious). So this gave the weasle Johnnie Cochrane a chance. Throughout the trial Cochrane latched on the race card and did not have an ounce of real evidence backing up his client. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the planted evidence were all tossed out, yet the real evidence still implicates OJ. Nevertheless, he was set free. Then a few years later, Allen Iverson allegely was looking for his wife. He knocked down somebody's door with a gun, threatened and got in a scuffle (thank god he didn't pull an Eddie Griffin). Some fans defended him saying don't prejudice him cuz he's black, although I don't see any relation between being black and the aforementioned crime. Nevertheless, AI's case never even made it to court, in all likelyhood because he's black AND a bball star. Now we have Kobe. I'm not judging whether he's guilty or not. However, it makes me sick that people just assume he's not guilty, and that some skanky white hoe is out after his money. That might be the case, but hasn't been proven any more than Kobe's innocence. So we are seeing the race card AND the bball star card being played at once. Some black people (not all, for which I apologize) use the race card to their advantage when they are racist themselves. HOW ABOUT SHUTTING UP AND LET KOBE BE TRIED FOR A GROWN ADULT MALE INSTEAD OF A BLACK AND A BBALL STAR? It just makes me sick that the court most likely will let him go, guilty or not. But never mind that. You said you ASSUME Brad Miller is more reliable, yet you STILL have no operation parameters on how you reached that conclusion. Bottom line, it is your opinion and nothing more.
If you consider total minutes played at a position, I'll bet you that even with all the games shaq has missed, he's played as many minutes or more at CENTER that Brad Miller has.
