Apologies if this shouldn't be a seperate thread. I didn't think it quite fit any of the current ones. I find it a bit curious that we seem to lay the blame on Francis for his perceived lack of development. Why do we do that? I would understand this attitude if he was just unwilling to learn, or if he simply did not have the ability to learn the position, but I just don’t think that’s the case. I think he’s willing, and physically able to be an upper teir point guard. Boy, isn’t that a weird thing to say about the starting point guard for the Western All-s Star team? Anyway, in teaching, if you have a student who is able to do what you would like him to do, and he wants to do what you want him to do, then its usually a mistake on the teacher’s end when they can’t do it. I think the Rockets have mishandled Steve’s development. Think about this. When in SF’s entire pre NBA history of playing basketball was he been asked to be anything more than a scorer? It seems to me he wasn’t. So why then when the Rockets drafted him didn’t they make plans to teach him the fundamentals on how to play the position? You might say well a top draft pick shouldn’t have to be taught this stuff. Maybe true, but the Rocket’s drafted him. They knew his weaknesses. So once they got him, it doesn’t seem fair to gripe about holes in his game without trying to fix them. This is kind of off the top of my head, but did we have a coach that had experience coaching good point guards? I don’t think we did. Did we have a veteran point guard for Steve to learn from? No, we had a guy named Moochie, I believe. Unless I’m remembering incorrectly, and I don’t mean that sarcastically, Rudy T’s staff mainly had experience coaching big men and scorers, not point guards. So, why didn’t we bring in someone, a coach, or at least a veteran back-up pg? This is the one gripe that I had about RT last year. He didn’t bring in coaching help. Not for Yao, not for Steve, not even for his own good to relieve some of the pressure he was under. This is one of the things I’ve liked about JVG. He brought in Ewing for Yao, and my belief is MJ is here is to mentor Steve as well as back him up. See, I don’t believe its Steve’s desire, or intelligence that’s the problem, I think it’s his knowledge. And I’m pretty sure that under JVG, a former pg, and with MJ on the team, he’ll improve greatly. The problem is that the Rocket’s may feel that their window of opportunity is not wide enough to give Steve the time he needs. They may need to look to someone else, and the fans for sure are out of what little patience they ever have. But think what might have been if the Rocket’s had been as concerned with SF’s developement in his first and second year as they have been with Yao’s.
The novel called Great expectation applies to Steve Fracnis. We had no right to expect that he was anything more than he claimed to be. We got exactly what we saw in the window. And that's actually quite good. It's better than not getting what you had hoped for. Belichek of the patriots adressed this concept yesterday. He said when he was in Cleveland they went for the superstar and failed, noting that most of the teams that go for the superstar fail to realize the expectations. So he now chooses to get the well rounded players. and it got him to two superbowls. Probably boring as hell for the fans on draft day, but two superbowls makes up for it.
This is Steve's 5th year and he looks worse than ever. Does he need a 'mentor' to teach him how to shoot? No. Pro Players have PLENTY of tools to improve their skills, tape, coaches, offseasons,Calvin Murphy would LOVE to help Steve.Hell, I'm sure most players could just ask and get some of the best mentors available, but when it comes down to it, its all up to the players themselves. If Steve needs to be force-fed information to make him a better player than he just doesn't have 'it'. The fact is, since Steve signed that huge contract he's become a worse player, passing, shooting, dribbling , and everyone wants to say " OH its because he can't play 'his' game" BS! Who the hell can win playing 'Steve's game'. Since when did a random ISO offensive system coupled with horrible defense ever come close to winning anything? And that's Steve's game. Me,Me,Me. Thats Steve's game and if he can't do that, then he's not happy. Its showing up in almost every game now, he looks disinterested, his shot looks worse than ever, his ball control is pitful, borderline bumbling, and his passing is lazy to careless at times. Its painfully obvious that Steve is not a winner and cannot lead a team. We got rid of Moochie and his horrible contract, hopefully some fool will take Steve off our hands too.
The question is who will go first if it's painfully obvious neither can conform to each other's style, JVG or SF...
I would of thought, for your football reference, that Francis would have fit the "draft the best athlete available" theory, rather than "draft the superstar." I agree with most of what you said, I just think the Rockets could have done more to find out how much of a "real" pg SF could be, given the investment they made.
As many minutes that Steve plays, he should be averaging triple doubles everynight. 18 points,10 dimes, 10 boards. Ok maybe a double double, I dont expect him to get 10 boards everynight.
Steve has struggled this year. This is the first year he has really been asked to be a pg, and not a scorer first. Why would it suprise anyone that the first year of doing something different he would suffer.
First, I really don't see how Great Expectation (except for the title) is related to Francis. Second football and basketball are two different things. A single or two superstars can dramatically influence the game on the court in basketball, it's not so with football with the exception of maybe the quarterback position. The thing with football is that every one is dependant on every one, you really need a good squad on the floor to control the game instead of just one or two players. In basket it's different, you need that one or two players to control the game for the team. Also in football the contract and the economics forces you to field a so so team. Just ask yourself who is a young super star these days? Outside of Randy Moss, Ricky Williams and Peyton Manning there really hasn't been many players that can be considered super stars on a consistant basis (i.e. playing at superstar or upper echelon level for more than 3 years). It's way too up and down in the NFL. If you look at football there is no longer any continuity, you wont have that Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Emmit Smith, Darrel Green or Jim Kelly that's going to play for a team for 12 years now. The NFL economics brought a end to that. We all talk about how it's nice that teams can cut players who don't live up to their contracts, but the flip side of that is players sign short contracts (with huge signing bonus) and bolts as soon as they can or hold out as soon as they feel their value go up. In football, teams really don't try to develope superstars any more since it's usually not worth it (he's good he'll bolt, he's bad it's a bad pick). In the NBA, if he's a bust, he's a bust, but if he can be a superstar, teams have much better chance of retaining him.
The minutes Steve has been playing this season is probably part of the reason of his shooting woes. If it hasn't already happened, the 3 minutes rest for Steve is going to start taking its toll. JVG has always been known for his 4th quarter efficiency and the Rockets are (or were) #1 in 4th quarter scoring, but JVG needs to have more of a rotation. As focused the Rockets might be in the 4th quarter, Steve and crew (whoever plays 40+ minutes) aren't going to have enough gas in the tank to play entire games.
These are Million dollar atheletes playing a game for 48 minutes a day. I dont want to hear how tired they get... I work 10 hours a day and only make 20,000 a year so that kind of BS makes me mad. If im gonna buy tickets to go see them they better play hard. J
"This is Steve's 5th year and he looks worse than ever. Does he need a 'mentor' to teach him how to shoot? No." If we knew he did not have the expereince to play the position when we got him why wouldn't he need that? How would he have learned something other than streetball? "Pro Players have PLENTY of tools to improve their skills, tape, coaches, offseasons,Calvin Murphy would LOVE to help Steve.Hell, I'm sure most players could just ask and get some of the best mentors available, " My point is did we have the right kind of coaches. Did we have guys that knew how to do what they wanted Steve to do so that they could show him. Did we have a player mix that would help him develope. "but when it comes down to it, its all up to the players themselves. " Well, yeah, of course. That's why I said I think Francis IS willing to learn, and CAN learn more. 'If Steve needs to be force-fed information to make him a better player than he just doesn't have 'it'. " What does that mean? So are we force feeding Yao, or are we just trying to teach him what NBA basketball means at his position? When Yao struggles as he learns is it because he doesn't get 'it'. "The fact is, since Steve signed that huge contract he's become a worse player, passing, shooting, dribbling , and everyone wants to say " OH its because he can't play 'his' game" BS! Who the hell can win playing 'Steve's game'. Since when did a random ISO offensive system coupled with horrible defense ever come close to winning anything? And that's Steve's game. Me,Me,Me. Thats Steve's game and if he can't do that, then he's not happy. Its showing up in almost every game now, he looks disinterested, his shot looks worse than ever, his ball control is pitful, borderline bumbling, and his passing is lazy to careless at times. " That was all subjective baloney, and still doesn't answer the question why the Rocket's name a guy their franchise guy and then don't do everything they can to help him be that guy. Why draft him in the first place then? "Its painfully obvious that Steve is not a winner and cannot lead a team. We got rid of Moochie and his horrible contract, hopefully some fool will take Steve off our hands too." More subjective baloney. Its only obvious if you say that Francis should have taken us to the playoffs every year he was here and blame the fact that we didn't make it on him. He has won games for the Rockets and two of the teams he led had better records than at least six other Rocket's playoff teams including one that went to the finals. You also seem to be under the impression that I'm a huge SF who is trying to act like their is not a problem with his play. If their were a trade out their that would with out a doubt get the Rocket's into the playoffs I'd do it. I'm a Rocket fan, not a Francis fan. My only point was that some of his problems are due to the way the Rockets handled him.
Ok, let's say I accept your premise that Steve has been wrongly developed, and that this blame falls entirely at the hands of the Rockets organization. (I don't believe you can blame them, but let's just agree with you and get it out of that way.) So what? Should the Rockets apologize and spend 2-3 more years of his huge contract trying to teach him to be a point guard? Or should they trade him somewhere that might need a scorer? The obvious answer is trade him, if he can't be what the Rockets need him to be, then what good is he to the organization? Who cares whose "fault" it is he isn't the player we need him to be, blaming someone isn't going to solve the problem, and let their be no doubt, the problem IS the point guard position, which is currently Steve's, thus, the problem is Steve, regardless of who wrongly developed him or what not.
Steve is the only one to blame for his development. His biggest problem is that he wastes so much energy on the court e.g rebounding & circles shoots. If we can put Steve at the SG position he will have a better career in the long run. (Less things to worry about.). Still needs to work on his "D" ! How many more years of not making the playoffs before he is considered a BUST?
Random, You're right trade him or train him that's the basic choice. I'm just commenting on the fact that after five years its not entirely Francis fault we're at that point. BTW- as far as trading him goes. Unless someone makes a block buster of an offer... We make the play-offs give him this year and half of next to show real improvement . If we really tank this year and we don't make the playoffs, trade him this off-season. I just hope it's one or the other and not a 47/49 w non playoff season.
I dont think he will ever be considered a bust.. is SAR considered a bust? or the Clippers players? He may not fit in with the scheme we have over here in Houston or he is still needing time to adjust and figure out his role in the grand scheme of things. Remember the whole organization and plays were developed for him to be successful as he was the "franchise" but now that the vision has changed he will adapt. SF's main problem this year seems to be his shot or lack thereof. His assists have improved recently and his TO's cannot be totally blamed on him. If SF can find his shot and continues to feed the post I dont have any problem with him on this team. I still think we need to find a big 3 and move JJ to the 2 which should drastically cut down on our TO's IMO of course. SF is in a slump but he will shoot his way out of it and once he does he will become the SF we want and also the leader we need. This takes time and maturity, he hasnt needed to do this before. Im hoping he figures things out and he becomes the "franchise" and he fits in perfectly with the "Dynasty" .. yeah yeah I know the Rox sure do love nicknames but it makes for fun commentary. hehe J
If we knew he did not have the expereince to play the position when we got him why wouldn't he need that? How would he have learned something other than streetball? So you're saying, since we traded for him(we didn't draft him) we should've expected him to be a streetball player and never develop into a POINT GUARD? You do know that he was a shooting guard in college and ALWAYS talked about wanting to be a point guard in the NBA. Steve KNEW he had to develop better point guard skills when he came into the NBA, he knew it. The fact that it's been 5 years and he hasn't shown a lick of development is appauling. I guess you can blame the Rockets for just trying to win with what they had, but Steve is ultimately the most responsible person when it comes to his own development...the fact that you're trying to throw this whole situation on the Rocket's staff is ridiculous. My point is did we have the right kind of coaches. Did we have guys that knew how to do what they wanted Steve to do so that they could show him. Did we have a player mix that would help him develope. Again, you're saying that a player's improvement depends completely on the coaching staff. If this is the case, then why has Steve regressed after his 2nd year? Year after year he's gotten worse. Even if Steve had a poor developing staff, shouldn't he be better than he is now? Can you tell me which great players actually get worse continually after they come into the league? Well, yeah, of course. That's why I said I think Francis IS willing to learn, and CAN learn more. But thats not what you said. You're saying its the rockets fault for Steve's play and this is what we should've expected from him from the start...right? Streetballer? I think Steve could've learned these past 5 years, but he hasn't. So are we suppose to keep waiting and 'hope' he develops some sense of the team concept sometime in the next 10 years? 'If Steve needs to be force-fed information to make him a better player than he just doesn't have 'it'. " What does that mean? So are we force feeding Yao, or are we just trying to teach him what NBA basketball means at his position? When Yao struggles as he learns is it because he doesn't get 'it'. Force feeding, I mean bring in all these coaches and assistants to help Steve learn what he should've been learning these past 5 years. You're not listening to me. Steve has had access to these resources for 5 years now. If he isn't getting 'it' yet and actually getting WORSE, what makes you think he's going to want to if more coaches are trying to ram it down his throat all the time. Its up to Steve. Its always been up to Steve. That was all subjective baloney, and still doesn't answer the question why the Rocket's name a guy their franchise guy and then don't do everything they can to help him be that guy. Why draft him in the first place then? 1. The rockets named him the franchise guy because he was pathetically the best player they had at the time and his style of play was great in the old defensive rules of the NBA , but not now. 2.OMG, why do you keep saying the Rockets didn't do everything they could?!? What do you know about it? Calvin Murphy has said repeatedly he wanted to help Steve out, I can't remember how many, but when Steve was in the league his first couple of years, MANY people gave him advice and offered to work with him. Look where that has gotten him. More subjective baloney. Its only obvious if you say that Francis should have taken us to the playoffs every year he was here and blame the fact that we didn't make it on him. He has won games for the Rockets and two of the teams he led had better records than at least six other Rocket's playoff teams including one that went to the finals. Look man, Steve Francis is responsible for his own improvement. There are so many fans here that try to find any excuse as to why he's playing like crap. Can't you just see that Steve isn't a great player? Look at Charvo's thread about zone D and Steve, he just sucks when he's up against it. He always has been his whole basketball life and he thought that once he got into the NBA he wouldn't have to worry about it, but after the rule change he's not the same player. Thats Steve's fault, NOT the Rocket's organization. They can't help that Steve didn't want to learn how to play the right way, like a good point guard. Thats why he's not a good point guard. Hell, he's not even a good guard now. I'd take a ton of other SG over him right now, and so would most Non-Rocket fans. Also, its sort of crazy for you to call my comments 'subjective baloney' when your ENTIRE post is all based on something you have no idea about. You don't know what kind of effort the Rox organzation put in to making Steve a better player. You're totally assuming they barely even tried to improve their multi-million dollar investment. Now THATS subjective baloney...
”So you're saying….” “ No, I’m not. I’m wondering why, given the Rocket investment in him, we didn’t have a veteran pg, or an assistant coach who’s job it was to help convert him from SG to NBA pg. If we hadn’t pinned so much on him everything you said would make sense. But given we expected so much why not? “You do know that he was a shooting guard….” I realize that. I just think that the skill gap was bigger than something he could close all by his own effort. Once again given the investment, it seems like the Rockets as an organization might have done better. Note the word seems. It is an opinion. I just think there are plenty of facts to back that opinion up. ‘The fact that it's been 5 years and he hasn't shown a lick of development is appauling. ‘ That’s your opinion. Other’s think differently. Others have said he has improved. My opinion is that he hasn’t improved much skill wise because he wasn’t asked to until last year. He was asked to be, by nessesity, an isolation scorer the first part of his carrear. This season I think he’s trying hard to adapt. I think he knows more about what he’s supposed do, but its not second nature. He’s not comfortable in it. Even if he adjusts there is a good chance his skills just don’t fit with this team. “I guess you can blame the Rockets for just trying to win with what they had, but Steve is ultimately the most responsible person when it comes to his own development...the fact that you're trying to throw this whole situation on the Rocket's staff is ridiculous. “ I’m sorry if I gave you the impression that I was trying to throw the whole thing on the staff. I’m not. I’m saying that I think the Rockets hindered Steve’s development by not bringing in a veteran pg or an assistant to help Steve develop. They may have had totally valid reasons for not doing it, buy my opinion is they should have. ”Again, you're saying that a player's improvement depends completely on the coaching staff. If this is the case, then why has Steve regressed after his 2nd year? Year after year he's gotten worse. Even if Steve had a poor developing staff, shouldn't he be better than he is now? Can you tell me which great players actually get worse continually after they come into the league? “ No I did not say that. Given Francis lack of pg fundamentals prior to joining the Rocket’s, having a veteran pg, or special assistant coach seems like it might have made a good idea. I think he needed more fundmental postion coaching than your average palyer entering the NBA. ”But thats not what you said. You're saying its the rockets fault for Steve's play….” No, I’m saying that the Rockets knew that Francis was a scorer. When I use the term streetballer I mean a flashy dribble drive raw type of scorer. I don’t mean that in quite the negative way some use it. As far as it being the Rocket’s fault, I don’t know that. I’m just saying there were sensible things I think they could have done but didn’t. Also, I’m not saying there weren’t reasons not to do them. I’m just saying they weren’t done and that hindered SF development. As far as how long do we wait, as I have said, if we make the playoffs and he stays about where he is give him this year and part of next. If we tank trade him in the off- season. ”Force feeding, I mean bring in all these coaches and assistants…” I meant A coach, or A veteran pg during his first couple of seasons. I’m also saying that given the investment in Steve, his youth, his inexperience, and what the Rocket’s wanted from him they shouldn’t have only left it all up to Steve. ”2.OMG, why do you keep saying the Rockets didn't do everything they could…..” I don’t know what the coaching staff did. My subjective opinion is that they worked real hard at improving Steve’s game. Unlike you, I also think Steve worked hard at improving his game. But here we are five years later and Steve is playing the way he is, so I ask myself if both the Rockets staff and Francis did their best, what happened? My opinion is both staff and SF were weak in the area of how to be an effective pg. That’s not a slam on the staff, I’m just saying when was the last time that staff coached an offense using a traditional pg. And, no, factually, they didn’t do everything they could, because they could have signed a veteran pg, or hired an assistant and they didn’t. Again, their might be valid reasons for not doing that, but I think if they had Steve might be playing much better. ”Look man, Steve Francis is responsible for his own improvement. There are somany fans here that try to find any excuse as to why he's playing like crap… This may shock you, but I’d be for a trade if it made us better. I’m not the president of the SF fan club. In his five years with us I have never been real comfortable with him at point. I just have never thought he was as bad as his worst critics say. And my whole point once again is the Rocket’s made a big investment in him. I think there are things the organization might have done earlier in his carrear that would have made him a more complete player now. ”Also, its sort of crazy for you to call my comments …” Um, yes my opinion is also subjective. I called your’s baloney, because you keep asserting that you KNOW that SF is a me me me ballhog who doesn’t listen to anyone and hasn’t improved a lick. I just think that’s over the top so I called it baloney. I also explained why I thought your not a winner statement was baloney, but maybe dubious would have been a better word. And, I never said that the Rockets did not want to teach SF, or that they were not trying to. I said that the fact that they did not hire/sign someone to help hurt his development and it was curious to me given their commitment to him. Look, I think part of the problem you have with me is that you think SF is terrible, and you think I'm trying to give reasons to deflect blame. No, I'm not. My position on Francies is he's an OK pg who might be an awsome pg given the right coaching. I don't think he got that type of coaching yet. I think he's getting it right now, but as you have said given that he has been here for five years we definitly don't have another two or three years to wait.
Hmm. Hypothetically, if everything in the original post is true, it's probably irrelevant at this point. I don't think it's incredibly likely in the first place - for various reasons, mostly in that I simply don't believe Rudy T was that incompetent. He was overrated at one point... but if the assertiosn there are true, he'd go down as a truly terrible coach. But even if it was - at this point, it'd merely be moral mitigation for Steve, rather than anything with real impact as to courses of action. Steve is 27. If he's "just beginning" the learning curve - we're in a lot of trouble. He'd be close to decline by the time he perfected normal PG skills. And, of course, it's more difficult, not easier, to learn the older you get. Neurologically, and pragmatically, one has trouble changing the more habits are reinforced. So, the argument is of the type that "we should feel sorry for Steve rather be angry with him," but it doesn't change anything else.
