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President Bush Set to Unveil New Plan to Promote Savings

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by El_Conquistador, Jan 16, 2004.

  1. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    I am very excited about the prospects of creating these investment vehicles. It's hard to not like this plan. As an aside, the WSJ reports that Fed data indicates that the wealth of American families has almost been restored to 2000 levels, when the market peaked.

    The Next Tax Cut

    It's hardly news that Americans save too little. Yet for the past two decades, while the personal savings rate has headed mostly down, politicians have mostly only remarked (or despaired, depending on temperament) on that fact.

    But now it looks like somebody is going to do something about it. Our good friend, Mr. Rumor, has it that on Tuesday night President Bush will revive the proposal for two new tax-exempt savings accounts in his State of the Union address.

    The first, a lifetime savings account, would allow individuals of any age and any income to contribute up to $7,500 a year. Interest and investment income would accumulate tax-free and withdrawals could be made at any time, for any purpose, without a tax penalty. Permitting tax-free withdrawals distinguishes this account from the current, more specialized, medical or education savings accounts by offering savers immediate, penalty-free liquidity.

    The second, a retirement savings account, would be similar to a Roth IRA but much more powerful. Like current IRAs, withdrawals would not be permitted until a certain age is reached. Interest and investment income would grow tax-free and withdrawals would also be tax-exempt. But the new account would more than double the contribution to $7,500 a year, per individual, and has no income caps for eligibility. (Currently, to be eligible for a Roth IRA, joint income cannot exceed $160,000.)

    These new accounts make a lot of sense. Right now serious savers are confronted with six vehicles: three types of IRAs and three types of specialized education or medical accounts. Each has different requirements and complicated restrictions. Having only two accounts would vastly simplify things. The old accounts could be converted into the new accounts. And the new accounts permit greater savings since, combined, they would permit individuals to sock away $15,000 a year -- a number that will be indexed for inflation.

    The new accounts are part of the Bush Administration's drive to create an "ownership society" and to help sell the idea of reforming Social Security. The notion is that as Americans become more familiar, and thus comfy, with private accounts for retirement savings, personal Social Security accounts won't be scary.

    Sure. But we can think of another reason to expand tax-exempt savings. Anytime something is taxed, less of it is produced. Just as taxing labor income (as is done through the income tax) results in less labor being offered, taxing savings results in less saving and investment.

    People who save must pay taxes on money in the year it is earned and then year after year on the returns generated by that money. A country that taxes savings will produce less savings and, no surprise, might find itself with a drooping savings rate. At some point, capital formation will suffer and growth will not be as robust as it might have been absent the tax on saving.

    On the other hand, if a country removes disincentives to save and invest, people will save and invest more; capital formation will be strong and growth faster. That's why we especially like the fact that there are no income caps on either account. Since the rich have more money to save from disposable income, allowing them to shoot for the rafters would turbocharge the impact.

    Taxing savings also weakens the economy by creating distortions and inefficiencies. Under the current regime, people spend vast amounts of time scheming to convert unspent money into nontaxable income and putting billions of dollars into suboptimal tax shelters.

    Mr. Bush's plan is far superior to anything the Democratic candidates for his job have offered. Most of their plans are nothing more than disguised income redistribution. North Carolina Senator John Edwards, for example, has suggested the federal government subsidize savings by lower-income families, dollar for dollar, with no breaks for upper-income ones.

    Mr. Bush's opponents will resort to their usual rhetoric of class warfare, calling the new savings accounts a giveaway to the rich. And, as usual, this critique is bogus. The incontrovertible economic fact is that the higher level of national savings generated by the new accounts will benefit everybody.
     
  2. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    Hmm. Pretty cool.

    But what does this have to do with reforming Social Security? There's not going to be a federal cash grab for Social Security funds, will there be?
     
  3. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    Not this one. The tax cuts were a giveaway to the rich. These programs are something everyone can use if they choose to do so. If this goes through, I'm sure I will use them, and others should as well.
     
  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    To what degree has the wealth of American families been redistributed upwards in the past 4 years? I trust it's by a decent amount, given Bush's documented policy of increasing the share of the tax burden borne by the middle class.

    Why is it called "class warfare" to point this out, but it's not class warfare to actually redistribute wealth to the rich and increase the tax burden on the middle class? Please let me know.
     
  5. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    ...and now, for the rest of the story....



    According to No Worries' thread,

    http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71423

    As a candidate, Bush said he would shore up future funding for Social Security by giving workers the option of staying in the current retirement system or investing a portion of their Social Security taxes in individual retirement accounts.

    Workers who chose to invest would receive a smaller Social Security benefit when they retire, which would be supplemented by earnings from their investment accounts.

    Bush also is considering whether to renew his push for lifetime savings accounts that could be used for any purpose, with tax-free withdrawals, and for retirement savings accounts in which money could not be withdrawn tax-free until the accountholder reached a set age.

    As originally proposed last year, contributions to the accounts would not be tax-deductible. Yearly contributions would likely be capped at $7,500.



    So, your opt-in for these non-tax deductible contributions would result in reduced Social Security benefits? Hmm. Potential ... yuck.
     
  6. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    If that's the endgame, then it's a horrible plan.
     
  7. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Cohen, aren't these two separate things: self direct SS and Lifetime Savings Accounts?
     
  8. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    It's hardly news that Americans save too little.

    I do not see how the Lifetime Savings Account will really have much effect on the savings rate.

    Right now I can put ~$12K into my 401K/403B and can make Roth IRA contributions $2+K (or whatever the limit is). My wife has similar options. This is a boatload of $$$ to be saving.

    And I can save the old fashion way by investing into stocks and bonds.
     
  9. nyrocket

    nyrocket Member

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    For once, something that TJ advocates actually makes some sense. For you guys worrying about a negative impact to your future social security benefits, I wonder what makes you think the scoundrels of all political stripes will have the wherewithal to maintain the integrity of the system. I still have a ways to go before retirement, and I have no level of confidence that the social security system will be at all viable when I become eligible.

    $7500 tax-free a year in a savings account is OK. Placed in a money market account, which I presume is acceptable, is much better. Best of all would be an option to contribute into an index fund.
     
  10. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    Apparently, but from your article: 'contributions to the accounts would not be tax-deductible

    I took the plural to mean both the LSA and the LRA accounts would have non-tax deductible contributions (and the $7500 limit also applied to both). Is that inaccurate? I haven't looked elsewhere for info.
     
  11. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    Is it tax-free, or are just the future earnings on it?

    Huge difference.
     
  12. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Member

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    Sounds good to me. Encouraging people to save their money is a very smart idea. It doesn't help those who live paycheck to paycheck, but it'll be a boon to the middle- and upper-class...until other taxes are raised and services are cut to pay for it, at least.
     
  13. nyrocket

    nyrocket Member

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    I don't know. The way I read it, the $7500 AND the earnings are tax-free. Otherwise, it's a very light incentive. Yes, the difference is huge.
     

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