Do you believe Utah wouldve only made the trade if Houston gave up its first round pick? They robbed us. Think about this: Jerry Sloan hated John Amaechi and wouldve probably released him outright. He was owed about $7.8 million over 3 years. Houston gave Utah an additional $2.5 million to make the trade. That = Glenn Rice's contract. Plus, now they have additional cap space next year. Utah actually saved money by doing this trade. Houston's 1st round pick was a huge bonus.
Glen Rice was due to make $9.5m for 2003-04. Now here's the important part so read this closely...twice if needed... GLEN RICE'S EXPIRING CONTRACT ONLY HAD VALUE TO TEAMS WHICH WOULD GAIN CAP SPACE TO BID ON FREE AGENTS IN THE SUMMER OF 2004 AFTER HIS CONTRACTS EXPIRED. The following is a list of teams which are more than $9.5m above the cap for 2004-05 so that Rice's expiring contract meant nothing in creating FA money for them: Boston - $53.4m New Jersey - $59.m New York - $94.9m Philadelphia - $61.7m Atlanta - $57.4m Indiana - $57.2m Dallas - $ 84.6m LAL - $ 66.2m SAC - $ 54.5M PHX - had they not traded Penny and Starburry would be over $50m. MINN - with the extension of KG, the TWolves won't have cap space for a very long time. So the 28 possible trade partners are whittled down to 17. On the other end of the scale are the teams that were going to have major cap space with or without Rice. Utah has already been mentioned and DEN, LAC, SAS should be included. So the 17 possible trading partners is now down to 13. Given that the current cap is ~ $42.5m, let's assume a marginal bump to $44m for 2004-05. If a team has more than $44m committted, they will receive an MLE worth ~$5m. A team with a committed salary of $39m is better off staying above the cap because they have the same "buying" power as the MLE and will also retain their vet minimums which they lose going below the cap. The following teams would hover around $37-$39m if Rice came off of their cap - TOR, MIL, CHI. They would not be major players and are better off with someone on the court and getting the exception of staying above the cap. So the 13 trading partners is now down to 10. MEM / GSW / ORL / NO / WAS / MIA / SEA / CLE / POR / DET Using the assigned player exception, Rice could be traded for a player with a salary range of ~$8.1m to ~ $10.9m. Here is a list of every player that makes within this salary range on the 10 teams that might have been interested: MEM - Wes Person - also expiring. ($45m committed for 04-05). GSW - Erick Dampier. ORL - No one. NO - Baron, Mashburn, PJ. WAS - No one. MIA - No one. SEA - No one. CLE - No one. POR - Dale Davis, Derek Anderson. DET - No one. Those are the only players Glen Rice could have been traded for 1 for 1. The inclusion of any other Rocket contract means those teams totally lose whatever small cap space they may have gained!!!. Getting what we got for Rice was the best deal on table and IMO we were damned lucky to get what we got. =========================== Committed 04-05: MEM - $45.0m GSW - $42.7m ORL - $44.5m NO -$40.6m WAS - $40.3m MIA - $40./3m SEA - $39.7m CLE -$36.8m POR -$36.3m det - $37.8m
How can you say trading Rice for who ever is not worth as much as the trade exception? Simple, because it's true. What is Rice would have netted us SAR? Still think the trade exception would bring us that much? How much is a 6.9 million dollar trade exception going to bring us when we can't combine it with another player? Lots of people have players with expiring contracts. If Atlanta is willing to trade SAR for them, don't you think one of those teams would have done it by now? Don't you think that Utah would have gladly traded Ostertag for SAR? Maybe Atlanta is not just going to give SAR away after all. You need to realize that Feigan's article about the trade excepition was wrong. When the article first came out, there was a giant thread on the topic and Nike, Gater and myself all agreed that Feigan was wrong. It can indeed be combined with another player. Ironically enough, that's exactly how we got Rice in the first place. We had a $5M Trade Exception that we got for trading a resigned Hakeem to Toronto for Draft picks. A week later we packaged a resigned Shandon Anderson ($5.4M salary) along with a portion of that Hakeem trade exception and we received Glen Rice and his $8.8M salary in return. If you like I can post a link to a USA Today article that lays out the specifics of the deal. What if the best offer Portland could get for Rasheed was Rice's expiring contract plus a 1st and 2nd round picks with out adding more salary? What if Portland did jumped on that because of they could get some picks with out adding salary? Might they pull a deal like this at the trading deadline? We will never know. The problem is that a deal like you are describing isn't legal under the CBA. If Portland trades Wallace to a team that is over the cap (i.e. Houston), then they've got to take back at least 85% + 100K of Rasheed's $17M salary. We'd have to throw in another $6M or so in salary. So, why would Portland do a deal like that? They'd be better off just letting Wallace's contract expire instead of taking on dead weight just to make a Rice deal work. Now, with the exception, we could trade Cato and the exception for a resigned Wallace. That makes sense for Portland because they get somebody that can help them out, plus they free up salary. That's much more valuable that pure cap space to them. They're not going to be under the cap for the next couple of yeas, so the exception deal lets them get a player they need plus move toward more cap flexibility in the future. Does that make sense? Cap space alone doesn't help Portland on the court for at least two years. Hey I don't know for sure what Rice would have brought but one thing for sure is that we will never know. Well, if Rice's expiring contract was so valuable, why do you think that Utah just released him? They had plenty of cap room, they didn't need to move him. Heck, Charlie Ward had a $6M, contract that could be bought out this month and NY couldn't find a deal for him. They ended up having to eat $104M in committed money to get him included in a deal. I think that you're greatly overvaluing Rice's expiring contract. So I guess in my mind we are still going to be capped out next year regardless of Rice's contract and the trade exception. But I think that Rice's 10 million dollar expiring contract could have netted a lot more at the trade deadline than a 6.9 million dollar trade exception could during the summer. Again, if all of those deals are out there, then why did Utah just waive Rice? Why couldn't NY get a great deal for Ward? Heck, for that matter, why couldn't Phoenix trade Ward's expiring contract instead of just buying him out and minimizing their losses? Without a luxury tax next season, I don't see this huge market for the expiring contracts like last year. Hell, I don't even think Less will allow CD to use the Trade Exception I couldn't disagree more.
Amaechi has this season and next season on his contract, not three years. He was owed around $5M over those two years, not $7.8M. The NBA CBA limits the amount of cash that you can send in a trade to $3M. So, the Rice deal actually cost Utah around $2M. So, yes I do believe that Utah would have to be compensated for shelling out an extra $2M. I'm still waiting to hear what you would have done if you were CD/Les Alexander. Anybody can criticize deals that were made, but without a suggestion of an alternate plan, they're pointless. I don't know how much clearer I can ask: Layout what you think would have been a better scenario that would give us a better option for improving than the trade exception. If you've got an alternate plan, even if I totally disagree with it, then it at least shows that you've thought things out instead of just whining about things that you don't understand. Nike and I have disagreed about alot of stuff in the past, but I have great respect for him because he has a well thought out ideas and he backs them up with facts. So, let's here your better solution.
Ok. Ill play your game. Let's assume the Rockets only viable strategy was to make a deal with Utah. Since you're the cap expert, correct me if Im wrong. Utah needed to reach the minimum $32.8 million team salary and by taking on Rice's contract, they accomplished that. Sure, they couldve taken on someone else's grossly overpaid contract but how many teams were offering an expiring contract and draft choices to boot - only the obviously desperate. They did this while also removing a cancer on the team- John Amaechi whom Jerry Sloan absolutely detested. Whether it was Glen Rice or whomever, Utah had to take on more contract. In return, the Rockets sent Utah a couple of 2nd round draft choices and a 1st to do something they had to do anyways. Plus they were able to negotiate with Rice to take less than his full salary. Nice tidy little package. In Summary: The Rockets were hamstrung by all their previous salary cap/draft blunders and were held hostage by a team that received an early Christmas gift courtesy of CD/Les. Right?
Nope. According to Patricia Bender's numbers, Utah only needed about $2.5M to reach the NBA minimum. So, at the time of the trade, all Utah needed was about $2.5M in salary to reach the minimum. They were hardly desperate. If getting rid of Amaechi was as important to them as you seem to believe, then they could have simply cut him and he would have still counted against their cap. Getting rid of Amaechi would have been simpler and cheaper if they had not traded him to Houston. So, if you're Utah and you need to add $2.5M in salary, why take on $7.8M in salary for a guy that you're going to cut, unless you get compensated for it? The most the Rockets could pay them was $3M, so Utah is still out almost $5M. I'm guessing that $5M is gonna have to get you more than a couple of 2nd round picks. Would you trade $5M for two 2nd round picks?
According to the Salt lake Tribune: NBA Changes for 2003-04 Min. Payroll $30.20 mil $32.88 mil According to her source for Utah's salary: $34,747,676 So Utah took on about $1.9 millon extra in salary for 1 season. Not bad for a 1st and 2 second round draft choices.
Assuming those numbers are correct (since the league prohibits the exclosure of the exact figures), we have come full circle in the discussion. The Rockets avoided the LTax, cleared cap to sign Jim Jackson and have nearly $7m of a trade exception the immense value of which has been established and it does not expired for another 8 months. The Jazz paid $1.9m in hopes they can find the next Zach Randolph with a #19 pick who has a guaranteed contract. My vote still goes for the TE.
One problem: Bender is low on her team salary. Look at the individual salaries, she's only showing Rice at $6.8M, when he actually makes slightly more than $10M this season. Deduct Rice, Ben Handlogten (signed during season) and Paul Grant (signed during season) and you're at $27.4M. Now add Amaechi back in at $2.5M and the Jazz were sitting right at $30M at the time of the deal. All they needed was an additional $2.5M, but instead they added Rice's $10M and only sent out Amaechi's $2.5M. Houston sent them $2.5M in cash, so at the end of the deal they were still out $5M. If you're the Utah GM and CD calls and says, "Hey here's a deal where you end up with no new players and it costs you $5M bucks". Are you going to do that for a couple of 2nd rounders? No, you'd have to get a first rounder to make it worth your while. Second round picks are pretty much worthless in the NBA. Those two 2nd rounders are all that Bryce Drew fetched from Chicago and he had almost no value whatsoever.
You need to check your math. Let's assume all your numbers are correct. Without Rice or Amaechi, the salary would be $27.4 million. Addding Rice ($10) and substracting Amaechi ($2.5) = $7.5 million of additional salary That's about $34.5 million. The minimum NBA team salary was $32.88 million. Houston gave them $2.5 million. The net effect for Utah (salary-wise) was? Pretty Sweet for the Jazz.
I need to check my math. $27.4 million + $10 million = $37.4 million. $37.4 - $2.5 cash = $34.5 million (approximately $1.9 million over the required minimum salary of $32.88 million. That's only salary cap considerations. After Utah negotiated with Rice, the actual amount paid was actually less. So they lose $1.9 million in cap flexibility for 1 season to gain a 1st and 2 2nds.
You're having as much trouble as I am at doing math. Just to be correct $37.4M - $2.5M = $34.9M instead of $34.5M. Also, the Rockets did acquire a 2nd round pick from Utah in the deal. I'm sure Rice's buyout amount was the $6.8M that Bender is showing. When the whole Rice deal was all said and done, Utah ended up spending right at $2M more than they had to and didn't have anything to show for it other than a first round pick and one additional 2nd round pick (they sent us one 2nd rounder and we sent them two). You can't think that Utah would have spent and extra $2M in salary just for a 2nd round pick. We had to give them the first round pick to make it worth their while or else they don't do the deal.
Im not really sure about that. Hoopshype has Rice's salary has Rice at $3.75 million. I don't know if that's a mistake or if the Clippers are taking some of that contract when they signed Rice. Also, the 2nd round pick the Rockets received was Sacramento's which is pretty much guaranteed to be the last or 2nd to last in the draft. The pick we gave up was Chicago's. Obviously when you're talking about 2nd round picks, it's a huge crapshoot but Chicago's is obviously better than Sacramento's.
This is some of the most incoherent and redundant babble I have ever written. I really need to contribute to the tipjar so I can edit.
I'm not implying such. But if you are asking me if I would give up Francis and Cato for Okafor and a couple of shooters in return, my answer would be yes. Okafor playing weakside of Yao is almost too great a thought to even mention.
Utah bought out Rice, so that deal had to be completed prior to him signing with the Clips. He signed with LA for the Veteran minimum. I can't imagine Rice would have agreed to take a buyout if it was as low as $3.75M. For that much of a paycut, he would have probably sat on the bench in Utah for the year and collected his $10M. After all, it's not like he wanted to go somewhere and try to get a ring...he signed on with the Clippers.
