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Four ex-intelligence chiefs criticize Sharon & Israeli tactics.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Nov 24, 2003.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

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    The article is also interesting in that it infers that in Iraq, Bush and the US are engaging in the self defeating tactics of Sharon.
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    OFFICIALS IN ISRAEL BEGIN TO QUESTION STRATEGY THERE

    WASHINGTON -- Imagine that four of the most respected men in America -- say, Alan Greenspan, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Colin Powell and George Tenet -- gave an interview together to The New York Times and called the war in Iraq "disgraceful" and "immoral" -- a war that could, if continued as is, destroy the United States.
    Then suppose that many of our top generals one by one backed up such doomsday analyses with their own words; and then that front-page stories, such as "American Army Engaged in Fight Over Its Soul," appeared in The Washington Post. Might you think something was wrong?

    As a matter of fact, this IS happening in Israel, as the war in Iraq that was to save the country (remember "The road to Jerusalem goes through Baghdad"?) becomes more problematic and the situation with the Palestinians grows more unsolvable by the day.

    In Israeli history, there are many noble stands, but none more noble than the acts of four former heads of the Shin Bet security service. In an interview with the prominent Israeli Hebrew-language newspaper Yediot Ahronot, the men essentially warned that Israel is in "grave danger" because of the actions of Prime Minister Sharon in brutally putting down the Palestinians.

    "We must once and for all admit that there is another side, that it has feelings and that it is suffering and that we are behaving disgracefully," said Avraham Shalom, head of the world-famous security service from 1980 until 1986. "Yes, there is no other word for it: disgracefully ... We have turned into a people of petty fighters using the wrong tools."

    The four legendary spooks -- the others are Yaakov Perry, Ami Ayalon and Carmi Gilon -- warned that piecemeal steps toward peace are likely to fail, because neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis are prepared to take a major risk to break the current stalemate unless they can expect a major reward; that Israel needs to uproot most of the settlements in the occupied territories; and that the 400-mile fence Israel is erecting against the Palestinians is counterproductive.

    "The problem, as of today, is that the political agenda has become solely a security agenda," added Carmi Gilon. "It only deals with the question of how to prevent the next terror attack, not the question of how it is at all possible to pull ourselves out of the mess that we are in today."

    In a slightly earlier demarche in several Israeli newspapers, the man considered Israel's top general -- and a hawkish one, at that -- gave even more sobering assessments until he was identified by an infuriated Sharon as Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, the army chief of staff. He said the network of restrictions placed on the Palestinian population was only breeding greater militancy, with road closures, curfews and roadblocks creating explosive levels of "hatred and terrorism" among the populace.

    Meanwhile, more soldiers refuse to serve on the West Bank and Gaza because of the brutal -- and ineffective -- tactics they are forced to use. That is where The Washington Post article on Nov. 18 comes in, the one titled "Israeli Army Engaged in Fight Over Its Soul: Doubts, Criticism of Tactics Increasingly Coming From Within."

    Why should intelligence chiefs and military men sound this alarm?

    "Because we have been there," one of the four said.

    This is true: It is the real fighters, not the ideologues and fanatics who "fight" from their offices, who not only know the situation but who are, ironically, likely to see the enemy as human. These men, forced by history to be realists, see that, with the Palestinian population explosion, they are catapulting toward a period where, in Gen. Ayalon's words, "the state of Israel will no longer be a democracy and a home for the Jewish people."

    Many analysts have noted the similarities of the Americans' tactics in Iraq to those of the Israelis -- breaking down doors of private homes, bulldozing ancient fields of date palms while jazz blares from loudspeakers, killing men indiscriminately, taking old Arab ladies from their homes. In fact, the American command in Baghdad this week felt compelled to issue a statement that, no, these were not Israeli tactics because we only destroy the houses of the GUILTY. Hello?

    The big difference now, and a sad one, is that no American generals, or any officials at high levels, are speaking out against such unacceptable American behavior, just as the American Jewish community organizationally almost never speaks out against Sharon and his tactics.

    Meanwhile, the four Israeli intelligence chiefs and military officers have reminded us of that "other" Israel, the liberal, open Israel that that everyone in the world admired, emulated and applauded. They have presented a program: Start negotiating, accept Arafat because you have to, give up the brutality, take down the wall, and get back to the business of what can be before it's too late.

    It will be a fight to the death with Ariel Sharon, who sees a world of endless war and endless expansion, all at the expense of a viable Israel; but how wonderful that these men have reminded us of what once was -- and, if the world acts quickly, what still could be.



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  2. Woofer

    Woofer Member

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    Members of their equivalent of Delta Force starts rebelling.



    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20118-2003Dec21.html


    Elite Israeli Troops Refuse To Serve in the Territories

    By Molly Moore
    Washington Post Foreign Service
    Monday, December 22, 2003; Page A19


    JERUSALEM, Dec. 21 -- Thirteen reservists from Israel's elite military commando unit stated Sunday in a letter to the prime minister that they would no longer serve in the occupied territories, joining other influential security officials who have recently criticized Israeli military tactics and treatment of the Palestinians.


    "We have long ago crossed the line between fighters fighting a just cause and oppressing another people," three officers and 10 soldiers of the army's most secretive unit, the Sayeret Matkal, said in the letter to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. The letter was made public by the soldiers, who signed with their ranks, first names and the first letter of their last names.

    The reservists said they were taking the dramatic step of publicly criticizing their government's policies "out of deep fear for the future of the state of Israel as a democratic, Zionist and Jewish country and out of concern for its moral and ethical image."

    "It is very grave and unfortunate that reservists use the unit in which they served as a platform for publicizing their political views," said an Israeli military spokesman, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

    The condemnation of government policies in the West Bank and Gaza Strip by the commandos echoes similar recent remarks by a group of 27 reserve pilots, four former chiefs of Israel's powerful domestic security service, the military's current chief of staff, and a separate list of 574 army reservists. The statements by reservists are being organized by a group calling itself Courage to Refuse.

    The criticism from within the Israeli military and security forces has unsettled the Sharon administration and has contributed to discontent expressed in the last few months by many segments of Israeli society over the government's handling of the Palestinian uprising, now in its fourth year.

    Political analysts said the comments from soldiers and military officers on operations in the occupied territories was one of the reasons Sharon announced last week that his government would unilaterally establish what he called a security line between the West Bank and Israel if the Palestinian Authority did not act quickly to stem terrorism.

    An open protest letter from members of a military unit that has been involved in dozens of the Israeli military's most sensitive operations is highly unusual, analysts said.

    "This is the number-one military unit in Israel," said Yagil Levy, author of a recent book on the Israeli military. "Until 10 years ago nobody could even mention its name publicly because it was covered by censorship regulations. It is a very mysterious unit responsible for the most heroic missions the Israeli Defense Forces have ever made."

    Members of the commando unit specialize in counterterrorism, assassinations and rescue missions. One of their most famous operations was the 1976 rescue of hostages from a hijacked French airplane in Entebbe, Uganda. Israeli documents declassified after last week's capture of former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein confirmed accounts that the unit planned an assassination attempt against Hussein in 1992, but it was aborted when five commandos were killed during a rehearsal for the mission.

    Some of Israel's most prominent current and former leaders have been members of the commando unit, including former prime minister Ehud Barak; Finance Minister Binyamin Netanyahu; Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, chief of staff of the armed forces; and the director of the Shin Bet security agency, Avi Dichter.

    Although the unit does not participate in routine activities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, it has reportedly been involved in some of the most critical missions, involving intelligence gathering and assassinations of Palestinians.

    The 13 reserve officers and soldiers accused the Israeli government of "depriving the rights of millions of Palestinians" and using soldiers as "human shields for the settlements."

    The letter said, "We will no longer butcher our humanity by taking part in an occupying army's missions."

    At least two reservists from the unit were jailed last year by the military for refusing to serve in the Palestinian territories. It was unclear whether those two were among the signatories of the letter because the names of the jailed men has not been divulged publicly.

    Effi Eitam, a reserve general and the head of the National Religious Party, which strongly supports Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories, said, "Those who signed are not worthy of being called soldiers," the Associated Press reported.

    Separately on Sunday, Israeli military activities continued in the West Bank, where a six-year-old Palestinian boy, Mohammad Naim Isryda, was shot in the chest and killed while playing near his house in the Balata refugee camp on the edge of Nablus, Palestinian medical officials reported. Israeli military officials said soldiers opened fire on the area after a homemade explosive was thrown at them. Another youngster from the camp, Nur Emran, 13, died from injuries he suffered on Tuesday, when an Israeli soldier shot him in the head with a rubber-coated steel bullet. The soldiers opened fire on youths who were throwing stones, bricks and bottles, a military spokesman said. The spokesman said the military had not received any formal complaint that a youth had been hit.
     
  3. FranchiseBlade

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    This is good news. I also just heard on NPR that Egypt will be putting pressure on Palestinian militant groups that engage in terror, and possibly helping to work towards a peace with the Israelis and Palestinians. Egypt had withdrawn their abassador to Israel three years ago, but now Egyptian officials will be traveling to Israel. They are also going to start opening up business connectoins with Israel.

    Hopefully things will progress on all fronts. These courageous Israeli officials and soldiers can keep up the good work.
     
  4. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Sadly, Bush is no help. It is debatable if he just doesn't have the balls to stand up to Sharon, or being a Sharon clone he just doesn't get it.

    His big contribution is to say that Arafat should go. Thanks George, we needed that. There might be some progress being made , but he had to step in and do something unhelpful. Let's just stop everything till all the Palestinians decide that their national hero (wrongfully or rightfully) must leave. Way to go Geroge, Sharon will give you an "atta boy!".




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  5. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    Bush is right. Arafat is one of the biggest supporters of terrorism, which is hardly surprising considering he was a terrorist himself. I guess you didn't notice, but all of the suicide bombers, in fact pretty much anyone associated with terrorism is a hero to the Palestinians. That is why the have posters and trading cards of the "martyrs". The terrorist and their leader, Arafat, are not only the largest obstacle to peace, they are the ONLY obstacle. If Arafat and the terror organizations disappeared tomarrow, there would be peace between Israel and Palestine.
     
  6. FranchiseBlade

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    I see, but the first govt. and members of the Israeli govt. were terrorists too. What do we do about that? Shall we just condemn one side?

    Or is intentionally bombing civilian hotels with civilians in it, ok for one side to do when fighting for statehood?
     
  7. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
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    my dad who is a hard core republican has also criticized sharon's tactics if it matters to anyone. maybe i can get him to write an article on it so we can post it on clutchcity and debate it.
     
  8. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    How about the Israeli settlement folk?
     
  9. Woofer

    Woofer Member

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    Speaking of treating both sides equally, what about the call for getting WMD out of Israel? :)
     
  10. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    Has any other country on the planet had it's very existence threatened? If any country needs nukes, it's Israel.

    Also, Israel:
    1) has not threatened to push any of it's neighbors into the sea;
    2) has shown that it can 'handle' the nukes (not use them or threaten neighbors with them);
    3) can keep them from falling into terrorist hands, instead of maybe desiring them to;
    4) Israel's possession of nukes has been a stabilizing factor in the M.E., whereas most other nations acquiring them there would be de-stabilizing.

    Apples and oranges. Your logic is analogous to saying that since survivalists cannot acquire automatic weapons, neither should the military.
     
  11. AMS

    AMS Member

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    It has used millitary force against its neighbours, most recently against syria I beilieve, and that too assuming that they were targeting a terrorist camp, but there was no such proof.

    Since when is Israel considered the military. They should not have WMD's. If you think of it as being totally fair, then Israels WMD should be stripped and a international police should be put up to run both the countries. While this may not seem too realistic or may even seem just plain idiotic, if USA wants to show the world that it is the police and can decide what countries have and cant have weapons it should step up and lay down the smackdown on all countries that are producing or have produced WMD, not just Middle Eastern countries, this just makes it look like the USA is agains the palestinians and all arabs in general. And then they ask why are the people burning American flags in that country.
     
  12. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    You didn't respond to any of the points.

    What kind of governments do these Arab/Muslim nations have? Do you believe that Israel's nukes are as much a threat to world stablility as nukes (if they had them) controlled by the governments of Syria? Libya? Iran? Lebanon? Yemen? the old Iraq? the old Afghanistan? ... or... Pakistan?

    It doesn't take a lot of brain power to see the difference.
     
  13. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    America once prosecuted a war of genocide against the Native Americans. Does that mean we cannot say genocide is wrong and put a stop to it in the present and future. Just because Israel has done wrong in the past is no excuse for Palestine to do wrong in the present, or did you never learn that two wrongs don't make a right.
     
  14. Woofer

    Woofer Member

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    Actually Israel continues to do wrong in the present with apartheid based on religion and race. On the other hand Israel will cease to be a Jewish state based on population percentage in a couple of generations based on the birth rates of the Arab and Israelis so they are screwed no matter what.
     

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