How to trade Steve Francis

Thought about SF for Okur and Billups also. Billups is a very good ouside shooter form what I have seen, and I think that Okur is the perfect 4 to next to Yao. He may be available due to Darko.

 

I would rather see them take MoT. Cato will always have trade value now that he hustles and we can use the rebounding. I really like Hinrich, he is the whole reason I came up with this trade. He is tall for a PG, athletic, intelligent with the ball, hustles, plays great d, and can shoot. I would do this trade in a heartbeat. This trade also shouldn't hurt Chicago chemistry wise because AD hasn't been there long and Hinrich is still a rookie. Hinrich is used to defering to the post on offense plus he is still a rook so I think he would like seeing a 7'5" post man he can pass to that will give it back if he is doubled.

 

T-Mac's a better shooter then SF is, plus Mobley's a good set shooter, and so is Pike. JJ is good from the mid range but is weak from the 3 point line. I don't necessarily think adding more shooters is going to help this team especially when none can create an open look for themselves, but atleast with a guy like T-Mac you could be assured that you'd have a guy that 9 times out of 10 can shoot over his defender because of his height or go around him because of his versatility and quickness. Francis's biggest deficiency is his height regardless of whether or not he's even putting up good numbers or not. As much of a leaper Francis is, he's small and T-Mac is every bit as athletic as Francis with a 6" in height to add. Not to mention adding a guy like Lue who's actually a decent distributing passing point guard in addition to already being comfortable with where our primary perimeter scorer will be, which should also lead to fewer unforced turnovers.

 

Granted SF is no the greatest PG in the league. If the Rockets would tade him they probably would not equal value for him. CD would get a bunch of scrubs anyway for him. SF is still has a lot up side to his game. Be careful what you wish for.

 

Sane -
In a 1 for 1 trade, the Rox can trade any non-BYC player and take back up to ~$7m more than they send out using the TE. In another thread, aelliott, Nike and I hashed this out in great detail when Jonathan Feigen wrote in the Chronicle that the TE could not be used to trade Eddie Griffin 1 for 1. After much deliberation and a direct CBA clause quote by aelliott, it was agreed that Feigen's article was incorrect. IOW, the Rockets could send out Eddie Griffins $2.3m contract and receive a single incoming contract worth up to $9.3m ($2.3m + $7m).

Observe from this that only the TE was used and NOT combined with the assigned player exception. Combining the two exceptions for 1 player is not allowed. Using both exceptions within a trade is allowed. For example, the Rox could package Kelvin Cato and Eddie Griffin. The Rox could take back a contract worth up to 115% + 100k for Cato (the assigned player exception) and then use the TE to complete a Griffin trade with the same team. Note that the 115% can not be used on Griffin...the trade is based entirely on his contract value.

Now, back pasox2's original premise:

Because of his BYC status, Francis can't be traded for another "max" player (without a third party). The logic is that the assigned player exception and the trade exception can not be combined on a single player. Which we know is correct.

However....

Francis's BYC contract for trade purposes is 1/2 of contract value or about $5m. His value under the assigned player exception would be ~$5.85 (1/2 of $10m * 115% + 100k).

Let's suppose we ignore the assigned player value and only use his BYC value. What I propose is this...Francis can be traded for a single player making up to $12m. $5m of BYC value and ~$7m of TE. What IMO can not be done is trading for a player whose contract is $12.85 because that figure is the BYC value * 115% + 100k. ($5.85 APE value + $7m TE value - not allowed).

It's clear to me. Hopefully I have communicated correctly. If requested, I will provide the link to the Feigen article on Griffin. Make sure you have alot of reading time.

 

I've been believing a trade for McGrady is the most viable and best return we can get for Francis. Something along the lines of:

Francis
Cato

for

McGrady
DeClerq*
Lue*

*-cap filler

As much as it seems irrational, just think about what orlando would gain.

 

If TMac was comfortable shooting jumpers he would be so upset this year. He can shoot over the top in Orlando but said the zones make him want to retire becuase he can't play his game.

 

The one thing that I don’t want is to trade Steve for a bunch of role players on the basis that Yao is going to be Shaq/Duncan dominating. I don’t think it’s completely necessary that Steve be traded for a “pure point guard”. Jim Jackson would be an adequate point guard. He could play kind of a Ron Harper type role for this team.

The reason for trading Steve wouldn’t just be because he’s not a prototypical point guard. Van Gundy has already said a pure point guard is not necessary. It’s because he’s the type of player that needs to be the focal point of the offense and needs to dominate the ball for 90% of the time to be effective. He’s taken a lesser role this season like people have asked and has not dominated the ball as much as in seasons past. But I don’t think anyone ever expected his game to suffer this much.

He would be a superstar if he played on teams like the Magic or 76ers, but I don’t ever think he’ll reach his potential or even come close to reaching his potential playing on this team. It’s a waste of his talent and more importantly detrimental to the team to continue using Steve the way they have. So it’s either trade everyone else on the team, or trade Steve.

Someone mentioned this already, but I think Michael Redd would be a fantastic pickup if the Rockets could land him for Steve. He’s got an Allen Houston type stroke and his game is perfect for this team because he doesn’t need the ball in his hands to be effective. He’s got the best contract of any player in the league (3 mil. per season for the next 3 seasons). He’s averaging 23ppg and 6rpg so far this season and he’s still only 23 years old.

 

good analogy!

You could probably get Redd for Griffin

 

I am not a fan of trading Francis. I would rather trade some of our role players first and build around Francis and Yao.

However, the trade above is interesting to me. You get the PF we need to compliment Yao (basically Grant for Cato). And then in exchange for Francis we get two young players with a lot of star potential Wade and Butler. Butler's numbers this year are terrible because he is coming off and injury.

Wade/Norris
Mobley/Pike
Butler/JJ
Grant/Taylor
Yao/Taylor

You could move Mobley for a true PG and then move Wade down to SG. That would be a nice team. You could have a young nucleus of Butler, Wade and Yao as the core of your team and then role players in Grant and whoever you get as the PG. Then your bench unit would be JJ, Pike and Taylor. That is not too shabby!

 

Agreed. Basically the #1 rule in trading is whatever team gets the "star" player in a trade ususally "wins" the trade. Teams dont trade star players for "role" players unless the star player is damaged (physically or emotionall) in some way. As an example see the Rockets Pippen for Cato/Williams trade.

The trade I saw in this thread with the Knicks (that did NOT include Allan Houston) was ridiculous! Francis for a bunch or role players? That is laughable! At least with Houston included it makes MORE sense, but I still am not overly thrilled about it.

I think the easier route for this team is to try to trade Mobley to get a taller PG to pair with Francis. Francis moves to the 2 on offense and plays the PG on defense with the taller PG playing defense on the 2.

 

Allan Houston is damaged goods. He has an incurable degenerative knee condition that's been limiting his time on the court. I doubt New York would find anyone willing to trade for him.

 

Not to mention his outrageous contract!

 

Right-o. Forgot about that

 

Interesting.... The question then is if you package Francis (who you can take back up to 12 mil for) with a player that makes about 7 mil (ie Mo Taylor) can you take back a group of players making approx 19 mil? For instance could you take back Ray Allen and Brent Barry who total to about 19 mil or does some rule get violated when you start combining players together?

Also, it is my understanding that there is no longer partial BYC and that after this season Francis completely loses BYC. Have you heard something like this?

 

Was not aware of this or the severity of it. Interestingly tho, Allan Houston is playing the MOST MPG of any year in his career at 38.8 and still putting up very good numbers. Obviously if this is something very serious then there is no deal to be made with the Knicks.

Also, as far as Houston's contract goes.... iirc he signed for 6 yrs 100 mil. When you lose high dollar talent like Steve and Mo Taylor (who also has a hefty contract btw) you have to get back high dollar talent, otherwise the deal doesnt work. Whichever player you trade Steve Francis for will be making these kinds of dollars. The attraction of the Knicks deal atleast for me is that it fills every single problem area on this team and provides veterans that understand the game and fit well around Yao.

 

If we trade Steve (not likely but here I am again), you either have to wind up with, say, Nick Van Exel and Someone Else or another All-Star.

Steve and Mooch to the Knicks.
Antonio McDyess (expiring contract) to the Warriors.
Nick Van Exel and NY's 1st 2004 1st rounder to the Rockets (maybe the first rounder or something could be flipped to the Pacers for Jamaal Tinsley; we'd manage with the remainder of the trade exception).

Otherwise?

Steve, Boki, Cato for Jermaine O'Neal, Jamaal Tinsley, um....this one would probably need a third team. Indiana has a smaller trade exception but Jermaine has a BIG contract; and Steve would be no better off with Carlisle than with Van Gundy.

 

1) Teams need at least 2 stars to be realistic contenders.

2) Steve and Yao are our only potential stars.

3) If we trade Steve now, we will not get back equal value; a star.

4) If we trade Steve and don;t get a star back, Yao is good enough to keep us from getting a top lottery pick, hence the chances of getting another star would be slim in the draft.

5) Free agents stars changing teams is rare and becoming more so, aside from end of career go for the Ring Now types.. If and when it happens, there are more attractive destinations than ours.

6) Considering all the above, the only possible way you consider trading Steve is if you conclude that he will certainly not me a star, but rather become an albatross contract.

7) Considering the alternatives, trading Steve now would be a terrible decision as opposed with giving him the chance to adapt to an entirely new role in an entirely new system, something which takes far more than 20 games for many players, especially point guards.

 

Rox,

I like the Nick Van Exel idea, however you absolutely have to get Jason Richardson as well otherwise there is no purpose in making the deal imo. I feel that you absolutely must get an established All Star caliber player or a future All Star in the making if you deal Francis.