True, but getting the "garbage" points you describe is easier than getting points that a player creates through their own offensive prowess. Getting the garbage points generally relies on teammates setting you up (fast breaks, movement without the ball). That's not to say that these are bad, but I think when you are discussing the skills of two players, the one that earns most of his stats the hard way is the better player. Do you think Amare would be averaging 15 points if he played on the Rockets? I don't. But I'm fairly certain Yao could average 17 points on the Suns.
Oh I don't agree with that. I believe points are points. By your logic Shaq because he gets so many points off of dunks would be a lesser player than Yao since he gets his points of off jumpers or hooks and such. I think Amare could get 15 points on any team in the league because it's so easy to set him up and he gets his points within the offense where he doesn't have to be the focal point. Yao on the other hand has to be posted up and given the ball to score. They're really complete opposites at this point but Yao would be a much much better player if he could get easy points like Amare does and Amare would be much much better obviously if he could attack a defense like Yao can. Honestly I've thought that's one of the biggest problems with the Rockets, that all of their players need iso's and plays run for them to score. I think if we had more Ruben Patterson/Amare/Cedric Ceballos type players who score without plays run we'd be a lot better team. We need more garbage men.
Timing, That is exactly one of the things I mentioned in my original post. Amare won the ROY based on stats, Yao Ming’s effect on the game can not totally be seen on the stat sheet. Teams game planed against Yao Ming last year and they are doing it again this year. The opposing teams main focus has been to keep the ball out of Yao Mings hands and that does not show up on the stat sheet. Do teams do anything special to keep the ball out of Amare Stoudemire’s hands? I would have to say no. I don’t see teams double teaming Amare away from the ball on every play like they do Yao Ming. Yao Ming is often playing against the center and the power forward or the small forward and he is doing it long before he gets the ball. Plus rebounding is not center vs. center or power forward vs. power forward, it’s every man for himself and Yao Ming has clearly done better this year at that than Amare. But the bottom line is that if you are looking for intangibles and things that don’t show up on the stat sheet then I think once again that Yao Ming is clearly head and shoulders above Amare Stoudemire. Getting garbage points is great but does not really open things up for the rest of the players on your offense. If Amare were attracting as much attention in the game plan as Yao then it would really be a huge benefit to Starburry and the rest of his offense.
Yao's better obviously (says this Rocks fans), but there's no PF in the NBA I'd love to pair with Yao more than Amare (well, maybe Elton Brand.) Too bad it'll never happen.
Very nice Crash. Your post kicks my "Cuttino is underrated" thread in the nuts! I agree with you and it's good to see the numbers that support that.
The thing about Yao is, he's got the 2 most important things in bball. Smarts and skill. True, you can't teach height, but we all see what a 7'6 guy with no skill can do (cough Shawn Bradley cough). We also see what a guy with athleticism can do without skill (eg. Darius Miles). Yao is lucky in the sense that he's a very athletic player for somebody that tall and he's smart and skilled. How many players have you seen carry a team to the championship without at least decent intelligence bball wise. So he's got the best of both worlds. Amare, on the other hand, better learn some fundamental skills in a hurry if he ever hopes to end up a player close to Yao's calibre. He's a great role player to have. Couple of boards here and there, a garbage basket when they needs one, a dunk to get the crowd going, but those aren't the things that carries a team. If Amare ever gets traded to his own team how effective do you think he'll be able to carry that team without Marbury and Marion? On the other hand, if Yao's on his own team he can at least still put up stats. This I think, is why Yao's ceiling is a lot higher than Amare's and that he'll end up the better player. I don't think anybody is really impressed with what Yao is doing right now as supposed to what he can do in the future.
No, because most of Shaq's dunks come off of opportunities that he created. I'm not talking about the difficulty of the literal shot, I'm talking about the difficulty of the shot in relation to how the player was given that opportunity. And my point was that Amare gets more of his stats off of opportunities created by his teammates than Yao. Again, I'm not saying that's bad, I would love for Yao to be better at moving without the ball (although with our guards I'm not sure if it would be realized into better offensive production), but I would much rather have a player that can create his own offense. Those are the players that win championships, not the Richard Jeffersons that are adept at working within the system and cashing in on what others develop. Now, if you don't take things like that into account when you are judging a player's current ability, then these two players are pretty close...but personally I like to factor it all in.
Yao's stats were better even before the game. If you think it's unfair to Amare, take that game out, I guarantee Yao would still have better stats.
I see Yao as someone you can build a team around, while Stoudamire as more of a secondary star. Amare’s an overachiever in much the same way that Darrell Armstrong and Bo Outlaw are. I don’t particularly think he has the tons of talent that others seem to, but he’s so relentless on the court that he just wears down anyone who guards him.
Exactly and the Suns are one of them...Marbury should refrain from making dumb statements...if Steve had said something like that, yall would have dubbed him the stupidest player in the league...oh, sorry, yall did that already... As to the original thread. I agree that Yao is better then Amare...although you took those stats after his monster game from last night pulled his averages up
I wouldn't consider anyone where in which all they do is dunk, as the best PF in the game. If Amare plans to be the best at his position he might want to mix in a little shooting ability. Until then I would rather have KG or Nowitzki or Brand, as these players have more versatility.
OK. Going down standings in nba.com: Basically all of the Atlantic Philadelphia Washington Boston New York Miami Orlando Almost the entire Central Toronto Milwaukee Atlanta Chicago Memphis Portland Seattle Golden State L.A. Clippers Then you have teams that have 2 stars but not to the calibre of Marbury/Marion Denver Detroit Cleveland Utah Looks like 3 quarters of the league to me.
Amare = McDyess. Both are good players who can make spectacular plays, but neither one exactly threatens the legacy of Elvin, or Karl, or Chuck, or Kevin, or ... Amare has a slight chance to do that, but I would bet it doesn't happen. Yao's not going to make Russell wilt (pun intentional), but I can very well see him moving past Walton and certainly Ewing by the end of his career. If you're starting a franchise, you take Yao over Amare everytime.
something idont get is how people said he did so well out of high school and compared his numbers to KG Kobe O'Neil and all. Well Amare was 20 during his rookie season (ok he was 19 for the first 2 or so weeks) while the other people mentioned above played when they were 17,18 during their rookie seasons. Why not match up the stats when they were 20 or even 19 and see how they would compare to Amare.
I didn't think I needed explaination, but obviously I do. Philadelphia AI and Amare would be good for playoffs, but by the time Amare gets good, AI would be past his prime. If playoffs is what a team looks for only every year, then sure go ahead. Star players: AI Washington Self explanatory Star players: MJ. Him sitting behind the bench is better than the Wiz players Boston If Paul Pierce can't win with Antoine Walker, what makes you think he'll win with Amare anytime soon? Star players: Paul Pierce New York See Washington Star players: ummmmmmm Miami See New York Decent players: Lamar, Brian Grant Orlando They already have Drew Gooden and Juwann Howard, adding Amare adds...? Star players: TMac Decent players: Juwann Toronto In Phoenix, teams actually have to guard Marbury/Marion. Although Vince is a great guy to play with, Amare won't be getting the open looks and his numbers would be atrocious. Chris Bosh is putting up good numbers as a rook, why would they add Amare when they need a 5? Yao on that team would be phenomenal though Star players: Air Canada Milwaukee Who the hell's still on the Bucks? Does anyone know? Does anyone care? PS. Yes I know Michael Redd is on that team. Decent players: Red Atlanta Amare would be coming off the bench after SAR. That's just sad. Decent players: SAR, could make case for Terry Chicago Great, the baby Bulls add another project. Heck, if any of them show ANY sign of coming close to fulfilling this potential we keep talking about, Chicago wouldn't be in the basement. Decent players: Pippen... 10 yrs ago Memphis The thought of Amare carrying that team scares me, not in a sense they want though. Remember they basically gave away Gooden and Giricek to get rid of Drew, who ironically also can't hit a shot like Amare. Decent players: Pau Gasol Portland Zach Randolph showing at least 17 games he's lightyears ahead of Amare. Decent Players: Sheed, Randolph Seattle Flip's gotta have couple more good games before I label him a good player. Shard is great, which is why they'll never trade for Amare. Ray Allen lost with better players in Milwaukee Star players: Ray Decent players: Shard Golden State Do the Warriors have anybody that qualifies as a star other than an old NVE? Decent players: NVE, Cliff, Dampier L.A. Clippers Perennial loser. Elton Brand blows Amare out of every statistical category and still couldn't win with a far superior cast last year. Amare changes that how? Star players: Elton Brand Denver WHEN and IF Carmelo AND Amare get to where they want to be, they'll be a playoff contender every year, watching another team raise the trophy. Decent players: Melo, Dre Detroit Pistons with 2 inside players that can't shoot. Very nice. Star players: Big Ben, Chauncy Decent players: Rip Cleveland Everybody on this team want shots, which is why Amare won't get any. Star players: make case for Lebron Decent players: Z, Ricky Utah I don't know, but I think Jerry Sloan wants somebody who can hit a shot off the pick and roll. Decent players: AK-47, Harp. In any of the above cases, in order to trade for Amare, the above teams have to GIVE up talent, which means they could potentially get worse. So tell me which team would be great with Amare carrying the team.
Yoyo, No one is allowed to sign up for the draft before their 18th b-day. Darko in Detroit is the youngest to ever play in the NBA and the rules had to be changed this year to get him in. Your point is taken though. Amare was older than KG, Kobe, etc... during his rookie year.
