Icing Yao Ming

1.partly endurance issue, I bet Ming just flat out gets tired in the second half and actually WANTS other teammates to take over so he can rest,unless its a tie game or something

2.mobley is selfish,and always will be . Taking 20 shots last night was nuts. Even though he had 6 assists,Ming should have gotten some more shots,and I would like for some of cats shots to be diversified to pike,jackson,ming.

3.steve is a slow and bad decision maker. It will never change. he doesnt do it on purpose like cat,but he is more a sg than a pg. So I dont really blame steve ,but I do blame cat since cats personallity seems like he is more into himself than winning.

The solutions:

1. I dont know,maybe eat more red meat,train more cardio instead of weight training,this will lose muscle but increase his stamina.Maybe he should get back to the weight he was last year when he was running up and down the court like a gazell against dallas.

2.trade cat. Its that simple. Cat has talent,and actually I see flashes he CAN mesh with ming IF he really wanted to,problem is I dont think he mentally is capable ever of doing so.

3.Simple, keep steve,but reduce passing responsiblities by making him more of a sg,and tradeing cat for a tall pg like Alvin Williams or Crawford.

As far as doubles and zones like last night, If we had a better passer(smarter,quicker) than steve at pg,and no more mobley,Im sure Ming could get the ball in spots faster.Although, maybe the solution is actually change the plays on offense more. JVG is exactly known as a offense guru,and I NEVER see Ming receiving the ball while moving like in the kings offense that Webber and Vlade run. Thats the offense Ming would really excel in. I would have Taylor and Eddie play the Webber role,and Ming the vlade role. OUr pf would post high,and teams couldnt double ming. (heypartner knows what Im talking about,but where the heck is he) Then, I would have Mobley do what christie does,and francis would be bibbys role. Boki/pike would be peja role.

Basically I would copy the kings playbook. I know their offense doesnt really have designed plays,its more like "read and react" type like the lakers triangle,but thats the secret to beating zones. It really is. Dallas does it now too and JVG looked lost on how to counter defensively. I think since teams can zone ming out,the only solution would be to have european type players that are all great passers,shooters from positions 1-5 which is why I want mobley traded so bad. Then,when you have those players,you need to run that sophisticated offense that kings,lakers,mavs use.


JVg means well when he wants ming to pound it inside,but with todays zone that wont work. Im really getting scared that JVG might be to old fashioned and not EVER know how to beat these zones. What we really should do is hire a college or euro coach that excels in movement on how to beat zones.

 

I can testify on your behalf on this one. I was watching the game with a couple of friends who commented as they were leaving that they couldn't understand how the Rox could ignore Yao 5 feet from the basket with one guy (Kaman) behind him and almost under the basket. I caught myself at least 4 times in the third quarter as the Clips made a run yelling "throw it to Yao, he is open," only to see the ball swing to the other side of the floor.

I agree that you have to keep feeding the ball to your big man when he is in the post, if for no other reason than to draw the double team. We saw several beautiful sequences that went, ball to Yao, double team, kick to SF, swing to Jax, swing to Mobley, 3 pointer. This is what we had during the glory days with Hakeem and that is the kind of basketball that wins playoff games.

I do believe that when Cat and SF are open, they should shoot the ball because they are shooters. I just believe that their best shooting opportunities are created when the defense doubles Yao and he picks it apart.

My biggest consternation is at SFs tendency to hold the ball. When the ball is being swung from one side to the other as the defense rotates, SF has a tendency to hold the ball for a second to see if there is an opening. Unfortunately, this second gives the defense time to complete the rotation and get back to their men. IMO, when you get the ball in this offense, you have 3 options: make an immediate move, make a fast pass, or shoot the open jumper. The key is that it needs to be done immediately and not after a second (or 5).

That being said, I was impressed last night with SFs passing skills (9 assists) and was relieved that Mooch didn't cost us the game when SF went out with 4 fouls.

 

CodeII, I respect your effort for your breakdown and observation of the game. But I can't help questioning if we were watching the same game.

Clippers did double team Yao in the second half, but very few times they doubled him BEFORE he got the ball. I saw few of them; of course I could miss some of others.

My impression is that western teams just don't double team Yao as nearly intense as eastern teams do. Not even close. In Magic game OR in Heat game, there were always two opponents sandwiched Yao, one front and one behind all the time. In these games, Yao only scored 12pts or 14pts something. Few people complained because guards didn't ignore him like last night, they just COULDN'T pass the ball to Yao and it was not smart to do so.

So far western just don't do that, in the game against GS, Portland and Clippers, they only double- teamed him when Yao got hot. Very few times they doubled him without the ball.

So why in the second half guards didn't pass the Yao more and started to play their own game? I figured out it might be that JVG called the play and it was part of his game plan. Reason?

1. Yao's fatigue factor. We have 5 game road trips and if we played Yao too much, it may wear him down and not be able to play well in the rest of games. This issue will always be a big obstacle for him to dominate consistently.

2. Our guards are good, though not great. And Yao isn't dominant enough to carry the team, not yet. JVG still need rely on guards to contribute to get more win. He has to balance the game plan to keep everybody happy and guards have the ability to ISO and score points, though it is much harder than playing the inside-out game.

I am a Yao fan, but I refuse to admit I am a Yao-only fan. I like Rox more and more and I wish they can win more games and bring the ultimate glory back to Houston. I hope everybody can keep up the rational discussion like this board always does.

 

codell's breakdown is indeed informative, but i disagree with you about there being some sort of answer to be found. the fact is that teams are defending us well and we are forced to adjust to their defense versus the other way around. fortunately, our defense has been even better a dictating what the other teams offenses can do. there is no answer, there is only dictating play or reacting to it. when the rockets have gotten out on the break this year, or hit from the perimeter, like last night, we get opposing defenses back on their heels. we are just simply not consistent enough with our offensive style yet. i really think we need to trade for another playmaker to take the ball out of francis and mobley's hands a little more.

 

What's this nonsense about Yao-only fans? Typical? Whatever you say.
Since you didn't watch the game, you only offered your speculation. You think? Well, everyone can think!
Wake up and face the problems of this team, instead of trying to avoid it. I guess ignorance is bliss for you.

 

Not only was I watching the game, but I was doing PBP in Clutchfans.net chat.

I have over 300 witnesses if you would like to check with them.

I also recorded the 3rd quarter. And have re-watched twice when detailing the plays.

Go back and read my breakdown. In the 3rd quarter, he was doubled teamed 4 times with the ball. On four or five other occasions, without the ball, he was either pseudo doubled (with an extra defender blatantly playing the passing lane, preventing an entry pass), fronted (with a help weakside defender) or the entry passer was unable to get the ball to even think about making the entry pass.

Clippers doubled him, with and without the ball, no less than 8 times in one quarter. This was after he proved that he could exploit them in single coverage.

2. Our guards are good, though not great. And Yao isn't dominant enough to carry the team, not yet. JVG still need rely on guards to contribute to get more win. He has to balance the game plan to keep everybody happy and guards have the ability to ISO and score points, though it is much harder than playing the inside-out game.

I am a Yao fan, but I refuse to admit I am a Yao-only fan. I like Rox more and more and I wish they can win more games and bring the ultimate glory back to Houston. I hope everybody can keep up the rational discussion like this board always does. [/QUOTE]

If the intent was to rest him, why was he trying to even post up on 13 different occasions in the third??

 

Gary,

How would replacing Francis and Mobley with better playmakers prevent teams from doubling Yao with or without the ball??? It appears the answer you are looking for is a) To have Yao shoot the ball when he is doubled or b) Have the entry passer find a way to get Yao the ball regardless of whether he is doubled and/or regardless of whether the pass is a high % one.

For the most part, this team is taking what the defense gives us. Most of the time, we have capitalized on those openings, other times, we haven't.

 

You completely misunderstood the point. I was simply stating that there were 3 possible interpetations (hence the allusion to the movie "Rashomon"), and I specifically did not take a position as to which was correct. I didn't offer any speculation at all as to who was correct.

I didn't name any names regarding the first option because I didn't want to antagonize anybody and start a big argument. But if you read the game thread, you will find that those that would even describe themselves as Yao fans who said that. THe second option I named "FB", meaning FranchiseBlade, and in hindsight it appears that Codell was in that group. The third was Yetti, who stated it earlier in this thread.

I was observing that there were three different ways to interpret tonights game; again, I took no position as to which was correct.

No need to get so touchy about it and start accusing me of being ignorant, etc.

 

One thought that just occurred to me, and I'd be interested in everyone's perspective on this: are our expectations of Yao setting Mobley and Francis up for failure?

I see the potential in Yao to be a dominator.

I get frustrated when he is not dominating.

I need to find reasons why he is not dominating.

But Yao is just in his 2nd year and carries that brilliant "potential". So he gets some of the blame, but it's hard not to stare into the bright light and cut him slack. The next logical targets are Francis and Mobley.

In many ways, our hope to see Yao fulfill his potential sets Francis and Mobley up for failure. Yao is just not going to complete the journey tomorrow, or even this year. But we are impatient and will naturally need to dissect the why's and blame Francis and Mobley. We want Yao to average 20/10. Only elite players put up those numbers.

Yao is making strides, as are the Rockets. As Yao goes, so go the Rockets. It will just take time for Yao to become a better player. As we see more of his hot streak play, the team will naturally form around him. But once every 5 games is not enough (I'm counting the game in which he scored 15 of the Rox 21 fourth quarter points). It's chicken and egg - as Yao hit hot streaks more often, he'll get the ball more and more opportunities to get on hot streaks.

I still wish Francis and Mobley would play smarter, but maybe this is the real answer.

 

as i said earlier: the fact is that teams are defending us well and we are forced to adjust to their defense versus the other way around... there is no answer, there is only dictating play or reacting to it.

what i'm trying to say is that, yes, we are taking what the defense gives us and i don't like it. if we had better playmaking we could force the defense out of position thus making the defense react to what we are doing offensively. creating havoc would mean better shots for evreryone. for example, we don't push the ball aggressively enough and this lets the defense establish position. we then casually toss the ball around waiting for the defense to break down. we can do better.

 

What JVG should do to counter double teamming is to have all the players moving constantly while Yao has the ball, this way the defenders will be confused because they need to watch other players while looking at Yao. If Rox's players are just going to stand at one spot, that's very easy for the defender to do their job cuz they know where you're at. If they're moving say toward the basket, surely the defender will follow you or Yao can lob u a pass for easy layup. That's why Kings' offense are hard to defend cuz they have players constantly moving without the ball.

If they have trouble getting the ball to Yao cuz one other player is fronting him, then move the ball to the other side and move back and try again. What did they say? If at first you don't succeed, try try again! I hardly see the Rockets try a 2nd time when the first attempt to throw to Yao is not there.

 

Both teams, on O and D, react to each other. Its not just one team reacting and/or dictating to another. The defense gets set, we react to that set, and then they react to how we counter that set. Its a dance man.

In the end, we are taking what the defense is giving us. If a defense is not allowing Yao touches, then the only way to exploit that is to make them pay by getting it to the open man, and that open man making his shots. The only way to counteract the attention Yao is receiving from the beginning of a set, is to put him in more of a high post role, facing up, where defenses would have a harder time doubling him. As of now, JVG doesnt seem interested in doing alot of that.

The only way to get a team to react to our offense is to make them pay for leaving guys open. Then they will adjust their defense and you will see the reacting of the defense to our offense. This is what happened last night. The Clips changed their D at halftime.

Thats how basic bball offenses work though by exploiting the openings that the defense allows.

Gary,

That is what we are doing. Have you noticed how much more we pass the ball nowadays?? We are passing until we find an open shooter. When Yao is dominant, we are making the defense react!!! They send more help, that leaves our shooters open. Boom!!! You said it yourself "waiting for the defense breaking down". The defense isnt breaking down on its own, its breaking down because of our ball movement. The defense is indeed reacting to us.

BTW, our team isnt very condusive to fast breaking. Pushing a break all the time is basically eliminating one of your best weapons in Yao.

 

for the most purt, I am a Yao ony fan; but i share with your view that Yao makes his teammates better. but i had also posted this to the Clips game thread

one caveat to the Rox, you can't win consistently if you consistently rely on the 3,4,5th option to win it for the team.

Rox need to run more plays (say pick and roll) off Yao---particularly off the double team. also, the 3,4 5 option should drive more, to draw the D team away from Yao and SF.

when it is crunch time, i want to se Yao or SF taking the shot.

 

I think at least half of those 300 witnesses screaming "Give Yao the damn ball" during your PBP .

Seriously, CodeII, I always appreciated and enjoyed your PBP especially I couldn't watch the games before I got NBA League Pass last year.

So the main argument between you and me is you saw a lot of double-teaming Yao without the ball and I didn't. So I have to ask you two more questions:

1. Did you see the possessions that Yao got single-covered OR even wide open and guards ignored it and swing the ball to the other side OR just chose dribbling and shoot? Not even once?

2. If Clippers defense were so tight and took Yao completely out of the flow, why Pike could pass the ball to Yao when he was on the court and result in straight wide open easy points for Rox?

I taped the game too, and have worried if it was just me who had such impression. Now I am much relieved because I saw quite a few people here or in the game thread share the same view with me.

 

interesting analysis Codell and I think you raise good points, but i'm gonna argue since i'm bored.

6 touches in a quarter is absurd when a guy is 6 for 6 and they're not doubling him without the ball on most possessions. on one particular play in the first half when the clippers fronted Yao, steve threw a perfect lob pass despite the weak side help coming over. i think our offense needs to work on getting him the ball and yao needs to work on becoming an easier target to receive the ball. You don't see this kind of thing with Shaq or Duncan, etc. Even when the defense doubles or triple teams these guys, they still get the ball and then they kick it out. The situation reminds me of Shaq complaining last year about not getting enough touches.

 

codell, i think we are only disagreeing on the success of our offense thus far. we are much better than last year and still improving, but we are still far away from being as efficient and potent as the league's top teams. we show flashes of good ball movement only to revert to last year's one-on-one tendencies. another playmaker would also relieve francis of the burden of having to handle the ball so much. van gundy is trying to have mobley share some of this responsibility but they both play too many minutes. moochie is just not getting the job done off the bench. what do you have against adding a non-scoring, pass-first guard to help protect steve and cuttino the way cato protects yao. it's about balance and not being so predictable on offense. when we have fast-breaked this year we have looked good. yao does not have to touch the ball every time down the court.

 

1) We are not conducive to fast breaking because our guards are rebounding instead of breaking up court. (Whether they need to or not is another topic).
2) Yao has a better outlet pass than most big men.
3) When Yao does run or trail the break, he finishes better than most big men. It means running the break makes good use of his talents rather than not.
4) We can't run the break all the time. No team can. We are getting a little more than 1 basket on the break a game. We need more.
5) Running a fast break does not eliminate Yao as a weapon. If we can get 5 baskets on the break a game, it means the team and our big men do not have to grind it out on the half-court set 10 times or more to get an average of 10 pts.
6) Even if all the points above are wrong and we can get some fastbreak baskets and not use Yao those times, it is for the betterment of the team.

I can't believe you've become such a Yao's only fan!

 

codell,

I have a question on your breakdown. You said at the outset that you omitted the PnR "since he rarely receives touches this way, anyway." What, in your opinion, is the reason for that. Why is Yao rarely getting the ball in PnR? Is it the defense or is it Yao or is it the guards?

BTW, I agree with ragingfire that fastbreaks are always good to have. If Yao can't run up and down the floor all the time, he doesn't have to. The big guy's job in fastbreak is the outlet pass, not running after the small guys.

 

This is interesting thread. Some fans fight everything for nothing.
IMO, each post is valulabe in its own content. But we need to aware what the content is. I could come up three cases:

(1) Those labeled YOF(so called) set the goal of Rockets to win champs down the road. So they are trying to point the weakness of the team that currently has and to express a way to fix it in the future. So their opinions are valid in that content.

(2) Those labeled AYOF set the goal as winning a game tomorrow or day after tomorrow. As long as winning, it doesn't matter what the problems the team has right now. Winning is happy for them at that day and they enjoy it. So in that sense they are correct. They might think WTF you YOF complain about?

(3) Those fans set the goal as to be a playoff team this year. Their opinions are in between above two cases. These are also correct.

So for us before we try to augue, we may need to think about other's contents. This might reduce the heating here.

Anyway that is just my 2 cents.

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