Jews can't wear kippahs because we have to protect women from burqa cults? Just lol. On the Vel d'Hiv stuff, maybe you're not aware of the scholarship idk, but there's been a lot of work on the study on the social history and psychology of the Holocaust, and how ordinary people can make themselves complicit in horrendous crimes and justify the morality of their own behavior by deferring to authority. See the book Ordinary Men, which was very impactful on me as a student. This same psychology is employed all the time by people who want to deflect blame that blemish their national histories. Germans do this with Nazism, French do this with collaborationists, Southerners do this with slavery, Japanese do this with the rape of Nanking and WWII, etc. Like I hear from fellow Southerners all the damn time, "my ancestors didn't own slaves!" After saying "the people in charge," the Germans, were to blame, Le Pen says, "Our children are taught that they have every reason to criticize France, to see only the darkest historical aspects. I want them to be proud to be French again.” You can denounce French collaboration and still be proud to be French, just like I can denounce slavery and still be proud to be Southern. It's harder, frankly, to be proud of being French with someone like Le Pen running around saying the things she does and being in a run-off for President. She wants to curate who gets to be a citizen. And, what culture the citizens get to have. Citizen wants to wear a kippah? No, be French! Citizen wants to build a mosque? No, be French! Citizen wants to say "email"? No, say "courriel"!
No. He does not. That would means it is not his country. I think you still dont get that simple point.
Listen, most people alive in France do not have to feel guilty and take responsibility for the actions of nazi puppets. Sorry they don't. And you shouldnt expect them to. I won't explain how democracies work but basically French citizens vote on how they want their country to work so yeah they have the right to pick who their citizens are. This is not anything new. Just how the world works.
1. Bringing up an historical context of government-sanctioned anti-semitism in light of a modern politician promoting an agenda that would restrict Jewish practice is nonsensical? It wasn't an argument, it was an explanation for one reason why many people freak out when they see her positions. It is an ugly, and thus sensitive, issue in French history that colors the situation today. This is not an argument, it is context for something you seemed to be missing. My comparison with segregation was just an example of something painful in American history where if any modern politician suggested anything close, regardless of how limited, it would freak people out more than in a country where something similar never happened. Not a perfect comparison but the gist is the important thing I thought to be obvious. 2. I presented no agenda, only history as an explanation for something in a culture outside your own. I can't recall having ever engaged with you before so I don't know what you are assuming about an agenda or bias. As long as you feel good about it I am fine.
France is a secular country last time I checked. So they may make moves to maintain that aspect. I really think people are playing the headware thing up too much. Again she's likely trying to help oppressed women and keep France from becoming drenched with extremism. The line of thinking: one must break some eggs to cook the omelette. Maybe she can even make an exception for Jewish people, but would that be fair? This wouldn't be the first country in history to ban head coverings. The Republic of Turkey flourished under Ataturk's reforms when it did this, and since then has stopped banning them. The rest of this history is unfolding under our eyes. Now that's likely what she's trying to do. Do I agree fully? No. Do I think its the best path with no problems? Probably not. I think her hard line approach is flawed for obvious reasons, but I certainly see the reasoning for it. The is a paradox between competing ideologies and cultures which are currently clashing. Banning imo is not as preferable as complete freedom to wear head coverings and let people choose, but then there is a flaw in that... what about women being forced to wear hijab, or worse the burka, by their cult-like zealots from a rather insular community? This is a real phenomenon. The women in particular are the ones often enforcing it the most, ironically. Genital mutilation, what about that when its in the name of religion? Should we allow them to set up enclaves with Sharia and religious police too? You have to draw a firm line, and I THINK that was the intent. It was likely not designed to go after Jewish people. The Jewish people are actually largely affected by the mass immigration in a negative way. It's a lot more complicated than what you're saying because reality isn't some ideal place where people can hold hands and sing We Are The World, and this is why mass immigration doesn't work when the cultures are not closely related on a fundamental level. Now that the genie has been let out of the bottle, putting it back in is near impossible without some problems. This is a complex issue and it is near boiling point from what I can see. They have to have the military deploy just to hold elections. There are soldiers all over the place, according to reports I've been reading and watching on the news. In Paris, Jewish people are largely unable to walk their streets without harassment now. Here is a video with a journalist who walked the streets and notes that most of the actual harassment is in the newly made enclaves of Muslim immigrants. You can go and see countless other videos and news reports on this subject if you'd like. So you know where I'm coming from, here is an example from my daily life. I'm actually living in a foreign country myself. I live in Turkey, and the expectation here is that I conform to their culture, their language, and their way of life, and their traditions. I'm completely OK with this. When its fasting time for the holy month of Ramadan, I'm expected not to walk around drinking water, and eating a Snickers bar. So I don't. Sometimes its expected I act a certain way in public or when the call to prayer is playing. No problem. I conform to their expectations because they are the host culture and I respect it. I would expect the same of someone from say Saudi Arabia when they visit France or another place in the west, and especially if they decide to live there. The problem is, everyone wants a higher standard of living so their migrating to places in Western Europe. Are they assimilating? The answer is a resounding no for most. These mass migrations are setting up enclaves, often with police referring to them as no go zones, where they don't even go in to enforce the law of the land. I would say this is the genie that got out of the bottle that I mentioned before. So before you go thinking the French are being over bearing when they try to fix the problem, know this... genies don't go back in the bottle easily. They are trying to figure out a response to what amounts to a big problem that will continue to worsen if they don't address it. The time to address it was much earlier than today, and this is why I think Le Pen stands to win. Something needs to be done. If she doesn't win this time, she will win next time. That is why her support is on a growth trend, while everyone in the established parties is seeing a decline in support.
I see France being in much the same position as the US when it comes to globalization: they offer the rest of the world a tremendous amount of opportunity and wealth, while getting very little in return. Parts of the "Muslim world" are stuck in the 12th century - except they have access to guns, trucks, and cellphones. The rest of that portion of the world has yet to catch up. Their legal system, social structure, morality, ethics, and economies give no motivation to immigrate for the Western world's population. I don't think there would be anything wrong for such Western countries to restrict immigration quotas from that part of the world, and instead increase quotas among each other.
Some more lovely reasons why Le Pen is winning. Before you cry RT, RUSSIA AND PUTIN, these stories are sourced well with government sources and officials. https://www.thelocal.fr/20161010/are-there-police-no-go-zones-in-france-the-police-say-yes “Of course there are no-go zones in France where the police cannot intervene and do their jobs in safety,” Denis Jacob from the union Alternative police-CFDT told The Local. “And it’s the same for fire fighters or pretty much any representative of the state. “The police can’t apply the law in these areas, they are attacked. If the police can’t do their work it’s because there are criminals and delinquents who don’t respect the law.” “It’s not just a problem with this government it’s a problem with all French governments over the last 20 years. Governments will never admit there are no-go zones because it’s a sign of a failed state." New statistics were released on Monday that will concern Valls and anyone working in the French police force. According to France’s national crime observatory, between 2010 and 2015 the number of police and gendarmes (military police) injured while on duty rose by 25 percent. In 2015 some 5,674 police officers were injured in the line of duty compared to 4,535 back in 2010. For the gendarmes the rise was even more striking – 1,807 injuries in 2015 compared to 1,408 in 2010. “A section of the population has no respect for the police or the state anymore,” said Jacob. He said the solution was a return to local policing and local police stations or the UK's old “bobbies on the beat” style of policing. “I’ve been in the French national police for 30 years. When I started there were police working locally in local police stations, but these have been taken away," said Jacob. “The police used to know all the young people in the area and would build up important intelligence on who were the criminals. “They would also get information from the local population who now feel completely abandoned," he added.
This is fun seeing you openly admiring you know nothing about French politics or culture and yet trying to forcefeed us with what the French people want. I disagree from top to bottom with all your narative. Does that make me a bigot against my own culture ?
It's completely one sided. "Globalism" and participation in world trade is unavoidable to some extent, but it doesn't mean countries should abandon the interests of their people. That's largely what's happening. It's reverse colonization. Why go to the third world when it comes to you? And then wants all the benefits the host culture has created, but at the same time will refuse to assimilate into that culture.
I should have written that in a clearer way because what I was actually trying to communicate that I don't know everything about the entire realm of their politics in the way I know my own country, as well as someone on the ground there, as I'm a humble person when it comes to these things, and I'm going to admit I'm not an expert on French politics as if I lived there. I do however know about their culture and history, and I even have French blood friend. I also know world history and politics much better on a whole. I do know something actually, and obviously more than you. I don't know if you're a bigot, but probably you don't value western culture the way you should. Anyway, you likely don't have a firm grasp on reality if you disagree with the fact that mass immigration has created problems. You must have your head buried in the sand or be a teenager with little knowledge of the real world. Also as for what the French people want, that's what this thread is about. Who is going to win. It looks like Le Pen is gaining ground, so I'd say increasingly they want actual change. Not lip service from failed policy makers. But please, try making an argument regarding this. You've joined a long list of people with no argument in this thread with little or nothing to say about the actual situation. You're another trash talker with nothing to say other than some idealist notions that that won't address the real world.
He he... There you go again not knowing anything (about me this time) and make general assumption seem like a reality. I don't accepting refugees here has cause some problems but making it seem like we're in a war zone is just plain stupid. Does that mean I will be voting for a candidate ? Of course not because that will be the equivalent of a social regression. As I said earlier we are a country of social heritage and am very proud of our politics towards the Syrian crisis.
Yeah you just said you disagree with what I've said completely, so my assumption was spot on regarding how you don't accept reality. Enjoy your bubble.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/french-presidential-election-poll-tracker-odds/ Marine Le Pen accuses 'arrogant' rival Emmanuel Macron of 'having NO LOVE for France' FRENCH presidential nominee Marine Le Pen has criticised her political rival Emmanuel Macron for having “no love for France” ahead of their final showdown next month. Ms Le Pen accused Mr Macron of being a “hysterical, radical Europeanist” who believes he can do whatever he wants with the country. She added: “He is for total open borders. He says there is no such thing as French culture. “There is not one area where he shows one ounce of patriotism.” and she's right.
Populism will always continue to grow as the elite ignore the conditions of their peons. Marine Le Pen Calls French Election a 'Revolt' Against the Elite http://time.com/4755192/france-le-pen-election-2017/ (PARIS) — Far-right presidential contender Marine Le Pen said Tuesday that people are revolting against the elite and predicted that could translate into a "very big surprise" when ballots are cast May 7 in France's final round to choose a new leader - and it will be her. Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron, the independent centrist candidate who is her rival in the upcoming vote, sparred in successive television appearances, tossing insults as each launched a political offensive to win new voters before the balloting in less than two weeks. Macron placed first in the first-round of the election, followed by Le Pen, and he is viewed as the favorite. Nine other candidates were eliminated. "There is a revolt of the people against the elite" seen in Britain's Brexit vote and "probably" in the election of U.S. President Donald Trump, Le Pen said in a TF-1 television show.
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/24/macr...ress-for-european-politics-goldman-sachs.html Macron symbolizes 'work in progress' for European politics: Goldman Sachs Emmanuel Macron's victory in the French presidential election's first round of voting does not mean that his potential leadership will be plain sailing, one Goldman Sachs economist told CNBC The Macron/Le Pen runoff symbolizes a broader shift in European politics away from a traditional left/right definition Le Pen's nationalist, Eurosceptic stance could form a credible long term mainstream opposition to governing parties in France ... "Sunday's vote was the first time since the founding of the Fifth Republic in 1958 that France's two main parties, the Republicans and the Socialists, were booted out of the second round of voting. Pill said that far right National Front candidate Marine Le Pen was "playing a big role in this reorientation of French politics" and the "redefinition" of policy in France more broadly. While polls place Le Pen nearly 30 points behind Macron ahead of May's runoff vote, she won the support of over 7.6 million French voters Sunday. Pill suggested that the Le Pen's far right ideology is likely to stick around in mainstream French politics, saying that her Eurosceptic, nationalist and protectionist agenda could become the "natural opposition" to Macron's stance over the medium term."
They already do. The United States immigration policy is heavily merit based(student visas, h1b visas, immidiate relatives of already citizens) from Muslim majoirty nations. 9/11 changed our immigration policies from the regions a great deal. The right wing media doesn't want to tell you this. They want to act like we take in droves of unvetted uneducated Muslims just like Europe is dealing with even though that has almost everything to do with Europe having a Mediterranean coast where thousands of unvetted refugees wash ashore. Hence why Muslim Americans have a higher rate of skilled laborers with degrees relative to the average citizen. It has nothing to do with religion. It's also the reason why naturalized Nigerian American citizens have a higher rate of advanced education than the average American. It's because the immigration pool is chalk full of former student visas holders. So I really don't know what you are complaining about.
Let me quote an earlier post of mine to explain why I think your method of emancipation of Muslim women through banning of head scarf s/veils is just stupid. I think that's the main problem with all these right wing nationalist movements erupting in Europe and America. They solve problems using the lowest common denominator solution of banning and isolation.
@a la rockets, glad to see you make an appearance. I would be interested in hearing your take on Macron if you can take a break from arguing with dachuda. I'm sure you're very smart and all. But, let's not try to compare credentials when you're talking to actual French people. Well I think the thread was about everything regarding the French election. But, things got heated and people piled on when you asked where's the proof that Le Pen is a bigot. We can talk about other stuff too, but let's not pretend that's not what we were talking about. Many people have explained now why they think she's a bigot, which you've dismissed as I predicted you would. It wasn't about what the French people want. Obviously a sizable minority at least wants Le Pen and cheers her policy positions. That doesn't mean they aren't bigoted. It'd be less tiresome if you'd just argue that these bigoted policies are right and wise and good then pretending that they aren't bigoted at all. You take out all the noise, and this is Le Pen's essential message, that France should be a country of white, western, christian-heritaged people, and all those people that got sucked into France because of its historical colonialism don't belong and should get the eff out. Maybe you think that's good policy, and maybe it is, but it sure fits the definition of bigotry.
