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[Immigration] Changes to temp visas

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Cohete Rojo, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    This is a good move. "American" has become too much of a pejorative among people in this country - including people on ClutchFans. He hasn't done what he promised he would do, but this is a symbolic (and somewhat significant) step along with the cancellation of the TPP to make "American" a respected standard and point of pride.

     
  2. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    What happened to the idea of just hiring the best available applicant?
     
  3. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Member

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    H1-B abuse is a real thing and something that is worthy of review. However, dumb blanket statements about hiring Americans first just come across as hyper-nativist rhetoric without a semblance of nuance.

    BTW where I live, unemployment in IT and software is less than 2%. We actually are in desperate need of foreign workers. Americans apparently have no interest in moving to the tundra but people from Asia don't seem to have a problem. So until Americans change their mind, we really need foreigners to come in and fill positions.
     
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  4. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    I'd rather have free markets without distortions from government regulations.
     
  5. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    There are job openings in places that needs H1B but it is also used as a cheap labor source in many places, not sure how they can regulate this effectively.
     
  6. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    Yup. Unfortunately H1B visas are necessary currently BUT there is no doubt that it is abused to fill many low level tech jobs. There is a an actual shortage of skills at the domestic level such as Computer engineering and some companies are using the H!B visa program the right way.
     
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  7. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Member

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    So you start taking a look at where you are allocating your H1-B visas. Right now its more or less a lottery. That's probably not the best way to do it. Create a points system like Canada does where candidates earn points based on a set of criteria based on their own qualifications and information on the employer and potential job. That way you're creating a stronger ability to vet candidates and companies beyond a random lottery.

    The American lottery system was created in the 60s and other countries have found much smarter ways to manage immigration. We're still stuck in a dated system that needs some updating. What we shouldn't do is take the problems of H1-B and use it as a justification to just outright limit immigration rather than being smarter about how we choose immigrants.
     
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  8. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    sounds like a much better plan than the current allocation system, if done correctly, it could bring jobs to locations that are currently sparsely populated.
     
  9. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    Libertarian?
     
  10. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    Not at all. But, like Republicans until a year ago, I believe in capitalism. The Buy American stuff being proposed is regulation that creates inefficiency in the markets, while the other side of Trump's mouth is talking about how we need to get out of the way of businesses by abolishing regulation. Now, I also think appropriate regulation is... appropriate. Where regulation is necessary for health and safety, to eliminate unethical business practices, or similar sorts of goals that advance the public good, I can support it where it's well crafted. I'm not convinced that Buy American really does serve the public good. It props up some American jobs and enriches American shareholders, but at added cost to the American consumer and at the risk of reciprocity from our trade partners. I'm pretty skeptical.

    Similar thing with Hire American. I don't want to hire foreign workers just to hire them, nor do I want encourage using H1B for monetizing foreign workers' vulnerability by paying lower wages. But, I really don't like the idea of shutting it down to protect the jobs of Americans. Americans need to be able to win in competition. H1B can use some reform, so I don't mind changes. I don't want to see American companies end up with a talent problem because of these regulatory hurdles. If they do, the nativism has gone too far.
     
  11. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Member

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    The irony of nativists attacking H1-B should be noted. H1-B was created by Nativists in Congress who wanted to undermine the new immigration system by creating a backdoor visa category for Europeans. At the time it was assumed that the only people who could ever qualify for skilled immigration categories would be Europeans so this would circumvent the new visa lottery quotas.

    Of course this completely backfired as today the H1-B is primarily utilized by the very people that those same members of Congress wanted to keep out.
     
  12. wizkid83

    wizkid83 Member

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    One thing even regarding the H1B visa is the current tech jobs are likely still outsourced, especially with communication technology advancements.

    It just mean that instead of paying a foreign worker here (and paying income tax). You're basically paying them overseas.

    There will be a big need for middle management skill set that can relate and run an overseas team well but still communicate effectively with upper management here.
     
  13. Gutter Snipe

    Gutter Snipe Member

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    Of all the promises in contract with America, this is the one I've been waiting for. I have personally seen large numbers of 100k jobs sold off to Accenture who replaces them with a mix of H1Bs at 30k and offshore jobs. Even the first two levels of mgmt are done by H1Bs at 40 to 50k.

    We are not lacking in Americans to do the work, it's just companies saving money. Zuckerberg et al are globalists like the Clinton's and Bush family. They don't care about America or Americans.
     
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  14. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Member

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    I get your concerns but this isn't the correct way to go about it. If you want to stop large consulting firms from mass hiring on H1-B then you need to put in a new system of allotting H1-B visas rather than just trying to destroy the program outright.

    As I mentioned, where I live, we are desperate for IT workers. Unemployment in IT and software is more or less non-existant. Companies simply can't find enough qualified workers here. A better system would involve distributing H1-B visas based on local economic needs, quality of workers, etc.. Other countries like Canada and Australia do this quite well.

    So rather than just saying no to immigrants, we need to rethink how we distribute our H1-B and other work visas. I have relatives who got here on H1-B who weren't in IT or technology. They work in extremely high skill areas that require doctorates in engineering. That's a critical skills shortage in this country. If you destroy H1-B, you destroy the ability of companies to make up for skills gaps that truly exist. So while I support cracking down on companies just using H1-B to find cheaper labor, that doesn't mean the program as a whole has no merit.
     
  15. wizkid83

    wizkid83 Member

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    How is eliminating H1B helping with not going offshore? Doesn't it just mean more?
     
  16. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    Since these "markets" involve multiple countries, do you believe it is requisite for all countries involved to meet the same standards to have "free markets without distortions from government regulations"? And by standards, since we are discussing the flow of people, I mean living standards - sanitation, safety, recreation, etc.

    You say you want necessary health and safety regulation, but, to be honest, I don't think a country like India meets those standards for the US to have a free market without distortion from government regulation. It's an unfair, one-way market, which because of the disparity in standards, necessitates some form of regulation.

    There is a difference between globalism and global trade.
     
  17. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    I think I've had this conversation with you before, where you say it's a one-way market, and I say yes it is but it tilts in our favor. I guess I didn't convince you.
     
  18. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    How does it tilt in "our favor" if we have no motivation or ability to immigrate (reciprocate)?
     
  19. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    Companies are using these Visas to save money versus find talent much of the time - this much is true. I am not against reviewing how it's done. I do think that the consequences have to be considered carefully though.

    Replacing a foreign worker coming to the U.S. with outsourcing actually hurts us more, not less - and would be a very short-sighted solution. You can't ban outsourcing either.

    Republicans talk about free market and not too many regulations, but yet they want to regulate how a company decides to execute its work load? There is a massive shortage of IT workers in the U.S. and if companies can not find the talent because they may not just outsource but relocate.

    I am suspicious also of the real motivation is more just people being annoyed that brown people are doing well - more so than white folks.
     
  20. Gutter Snipe

    Gutter Snipe Member

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    It's not a panacea. But onshore workers tend to be much more productive than off-shore and it's easier for H1Bs to replace local workers. Many companies have gone the offshore route unsuccessfully. If I'm the manager of a team of H1Bs, we'll find a way to make them work for the most part.

    Mass immigration consistently lowers wages, whether it's illegals coming across the border or visa-based immigration that lowers wages for higher paying jobs. We have 1.8 million graduates coming out of our universities every year and you can't find people to fill tech jobs? They can't all have degrees in women's studies, can they?
     

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