pgabriel: Ummm... if you don't like a thread, don't read it. Posting w/o reading it makes it impossible for discussion to progress. Already answered. If Yao's open, and in single coverage, and has position... the defense is giving you that. That's our best option. It has to be taken advantage of every single time to maximize efficiency. The Rockets won because the shots fell while the Bulls shots didnt' fall. It's really that simple. That's why they won last year, too, under those circumstances. And, to be frank, people who only cheer every time a team wins... and only b**** when a team loses... are missing the boat. There are good things to be found in defeats and bad things to be found in victory. Eh? Where the hell are you getting this from? You're inference is not only irrational, but false as well. You do realize, don't you, that you tendered only one logical argument, one excuse, and two ad hominems? That's a piss poor way to argue. Ummm. I loved the Denver game. There was a huge difference in the team in that game. To be honest, I'm probably more upset because of that game - I see backsliding.
Good post as always Gater... I'm sure Mooch appreciates his name being mentioned I don't get why JVG and Rudy love so much about Mooch...just don't get it...
Actually, many of us do see the progress, even though we're complaining. Saying: 1. Yao isn't getting the ball enough. and 2. The offense is improving. are not compatible statements. I hold both views. It's pretty obvious that JVG's non-Yao oriented offense is better than Rudy's non-Yao oriented offense.
Hi, GATER, I agree with you it is not about Yao's low shot count. But back to your post and count how many ISOs played in the above replay? In the majority of time Yao was used to set the PnR in the high post or wait at the weak side watching ISO. I mean if you just use a 7 ft 5, 60% shooting percentage guy set the PnR most of time, it will be a waste. We should have signed pig Miller to do the job. He is much cheaper. Of course if you say we already have 20pts lead (which we could hardly hold last year), and players should be allowed to do whatever they want, just as a practise. It will make our bench better. I accept that
Damn lack of an edit feature . Actually GATER and SamFisher (rational opponents), let me ask a couple of questions for you to get some more general information that I don't have: 1. Do you think channeling offense primarily through Yao creates the most efficient offense, generally? 2. Do you think that our guards are resistant to that offense at all (and if so, in what degree)? 3. If yes to A and B, what remedial measures (if any) would you take and how soon? Sorry, I know we've been arguing for a while. I just want to get your general positions down in my head to make sure we're just not arguing over a single game.
Great job Gater.. Im really glad you took the time to do that cause I was going to have to make time to do it with all these people whining about YM touches and the percieved lack of team game. I see the same stuff you see, I see a team that is slowly but surely totally changing the way they play the game. and the fact that YM doesn't have to take all the shots doesnt change the fact that his presence on the court ensures that the ball movement and defensive adjustments on the opponents part favors the Rockets there is more to the offense than YM setting inthe post and scoring or passing, the cuts and backcuts and picks are all things that he can do effectively to help his teammates get good shots. tell ya what, if we run into this situation next game, Ill take the second and forth for breakdown and you can do the first and third. Ill keep doing it till we can get these guys to look at more than just touches.
Bah. If only we could bring Matt Maloney back... now there was a guy who knew his place on a team . Oh wait... In all seriousness, Moochie is the only guard I definitely want gone, and I'm sure just about everyone agrees with that. I lean towards getting rid of Mobley, too... but would be open to real improvement by him. Francis has been learning the last two years how to play the point better. I might have a problem with the speed of his progress... and I might wish he would defer to Yao more. But I love watching Steve play, and think he's an excellent player who we're lucky to have. I guess that gets lost in my posts... ...and of course, I think Jim Jackson (whether he's playing SG or SF) is a great addition whom we're lucky to have.
I feel your pain Haven, I really do. But I think we've got to wait several more games to really see how our guards improve. I'll give it 10-15 games, and if we play the same way, I think I'm going to lose hope in our guards....They are taking babysteps and growing though.
Who are you, Trader_Jorge? Anyway, you've only made one logical argument so far, just because a team wins didn't mean they played well. As well as your "offense runs more efficiently through Yao" argument, only time will tell. But that's an opinion right now, I don't disagree with it, but lets give it time before we make those bold claims. But I would much rather have a team that adjusts to the conditions of the game rather than try to run their "system" no matter what the other team is countering with. Clearly there were times last year when giving the ball to Yao everytime didn't work, for whatever reason. The object of the game isn't to run your system it is to win, and to find the most efficient way possible, and a 30 point win is clearly efficient. Oh yeah, and they had to hop on a plane last night, so if they can win without exhausting their best player who has fatigue issues, that's another benifit.
1. "efficient" is a fluid term. But yes, he should of course be involved in the offense, he's either the best or at least the second best offensive player, the more the better. 2. Mobley still takes stupid shots, however he took a bunch of them on the back end of a 30 point massacre, so I don't want to judge him on the second half of last night. Francis is doing a good job (from what I can see and from what JVG has said) Norris is trying but is too unskilled to be able to execute most of the time. 3. For .2? I don't know abou the psychology of mobley to figure it out. Maybe he will learn (he missed most of preseason remmeber), maybe not. If not then say goodbye. As for Moochie, there's not a lot you can do except pray.
haven - If you in all honesty can't see that JVG is emphasing an inside-out game, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I have about 70 of the Rox games on tape last year, pick one and I'll count shots, PnR's and/or total touches for you. I suspect they are a lot higher this season. We can revisit this when JVG has had say 20 or 25 regular season games with Yao. For now, let me leave you with a closing comment... Yao's shots per minute and assists per minute (note...I did not say touches) are statistically dead even between last season and this. But the Rox as a team are averaging about 3 fewer shots per game this season. Possibly due to the emphasis on defense, Yao is only getting the same %age but of a smaller number.
When Yao gets the ball on the low post, it looks like he is going to create a score about 85% of the time. Either through the basket, a foul, or the assist. JVG needs to keep pushing for the offense to run through Yao.
i have to say that I don't really care how much Yao shoots the ball although I do think that for the vast majority of plays i do think that he should be involved. Last night he seemed to be setting a lot of screens and picks and he should have as our perimeter players were having a field day. But like others have said, just getting a blow out victory means nothing. Last year we had them and they didn't mean anything. They will happend every year. We had blowout victories last year whenever our shooters got hot. Obviously we couldn't rely on that because we didn't make the playoffs. There were bad things in last night's game. 1) Yao still is having problems with positioning in the post, which is keeping him from getting the touches that the Yao lovers want him to have. As much as I love Yao, if he does not position himself better, he will always remain a good center, and not a dominant center. 2) Cuttino still is not playing within the game or maybe the game plan is for him to drive into three defenders and throw up a brick and not pass to the wide open man. This happened quite a bit last night. I guess some of you only see when he makes his shots (usually one's he shouldn't have taken). He consistently does not pass or only passes to certain teammates. Watch the tape. And do not count obvious plays drawn up to get the post the ball. 3) Francis is getting better but is still making poor decisions on the court. Trying too much for fancy passes, like flipping it over his shoulder while driving into the tres. This is okay when we are up by twenty points or fourteen with two minutes to go, but not early in the game with only a lead of ten. But he is improving 4) I wish some of our players had more confidence in their teammates. There were lots of times we had open players on the perimeter that did not get the ball when they should have. For some reason our players prefer to pass to Moochie with a man on him instead of Nachbar without anyone remotely near him. I don't care if Nachbar is having shooting problems, a open man is an open man, plus anything is better than moochie. There were lots of positives. 1) Our defense is spectacular. Cato and Yao clean up a lot of mistakes. If we can keep this up we will win lotsa games as long as our offense isn't as craptacular as it was in the Memphis game. 2) Perimeter shooting is coming around. It sometimes takes a few games to warm up. We'll see tonight if it was an aberration or a sign of more consistent shooting (our biggest problem since the Francis era -- no blame on Francis -- but that was when it started) 3) Yao and Jimmy Jackson seem to have a good thing going between them. I think Jackson passes to the post better than any of our players. Maybe it comes from playing with Divac. 4) I saw a lot more movement and not so much ISO, well maybe at the end of the game there was a lot more ISO. But this is the biggest positive. The ISO is what we always wanted to get away from and we are. We use a lot more screens and more picks to get open. If only the pick and roll would sometime pass to the picker... So I think last night's game was a positive game, but there are things that still need work. But complaining about Yao not getting enough shots is ridiculous. Some of the fault lies in him. And the fact is we didn't need him last night.
Aiyeeeeee! Never that! ... Hmmm. Well, yes. But it's been unassailed logically. And my attacks have been logical. My problem was really more with you making various personal attacks as "arguments." Would you dispute this, then: from the data we have so far, possessions in which Yao is given the ball when he is open, are more likely to result in points than those in which he is open, and is not given the ball? I've been incredibly impressed by the ratio of Yao getting the ball near the paint and the Rockets scoring points. Of course, the further the season goes, the larger the sample size gets... and the more the data actually means. But I think the early returns are very favorable to Yao's efficiency. Unresponsive to my point. Nobody here is arguing for rigidity. But rather, a consistent effort by the team to maximize efficiency. If getting the ball to Yao isn't working - fine, by all means, do other things. But in that last game, the Rockets actually dominated most in the early going when Yao was getting the ball a great deal. The "conditions of the game" did not dictate a perimeter game. It happened to work - but there weren't really great strategic reasons for it. And in the long run - following sound strategy is going to pay off. Your point about flexibility is totally true. And if teams start triple teaming Yao - by all means, focus on the perimeter game. Mostly answered above. But you're using hindsight. The strategy that should be employed is that which gives you the best opportunity of success. Opportunity - that doesn't guarantee results, just probability. Also, I was not so pro-Yao before the season started. But his incredible success when given the chance in the preseason and early this year has won me over. I have no problem with resting Yao. At all. I have a problem with not involving him when he is playing. So once again - unresponsive!
And that is a very reasonable expectation. I agree that in 15020 games we should have a much better read on who is doing the right thing, and who isnt. b****ing and screaming after three games of the new season is a bit premature imo.. Yao isnt fully integrated into the offense yet, and the other guys are still not fully proficient at finding the right way to work around the different looks that opponents defenses are giving us in regards to guarding Yao. Sometimes they panic, sometimes other players are given the opportunity to create....these are not bad things...but people just need to be patient to fully see what VG is trying to do here.
"2) Cuttino still is not playing within the game or maybe the game plan is for him to drive into three defenders and throw up a brick and not pass to the wide open man. " I specifically watched for this and did not see it. Do you have a specific time you are refering to? If he was truly out of the gameplan then why didn't JVG say something to him?
it is a slight exagerration....Cat did make some stupid plays last night....the driving into the teeth of the defense did happen....but not near as much as last season. Give Cat a little more time to show he is geting it, if not, then we get rid of him. but he was out most of the preseason and doesnt have the reps working thru the offense that the others do. I say give them 15-20 games to see who really is doing it. everything else is premature judgement at this point.
