The problem Harden has is turning the ball over at least 2-3 times a game on passes that point guards in high school don't even make. Just being careless and sloppy. Those 2-3 turnovers mean you pissed away the opportunity to score anywhere from 4-9 pts. Just PISSED it away. You don't think this can be the difference between winning a close game (especially in the playoffs where EVERY possession matters)?
That's too aggressive. We score like 1.12 points per possessions. His extra turnovers are worth a little more than 3 points a game based on your 2-3 turnover number. Then you account for what the other team scores
I think even non-stats guys understand that a player bootstrapping one of the best offenses ever while surrounded by players with very little offensive talent (Capela, Ariza, et al) is going to have plenty of turnovers. The few who don't understand aren't going to no matter how much evidence you put in front of them. Would it be great if Harden reduced his turnovers? Sure. It would also be great if he shot 50% from three.
Fake news. What a dumb article. Turnovers haven't changed in the past 50 years. So mentioning the many variations of them doens't matter. Every player has faced the same standards.
Rockets are #4 in TEAM Assist-to-Turnover ratio. Thats a good thing. Whatever turnovers they get, they make up for in plays I do think Harden turnovers are an issue situationally. Runs and momentum does matter in sports. If you're on a 7-0 run, why kill your OWN momentum giving the ball right back to other team for easy points off your turnover. Then you try to overcompensate for mistake with a forced bad shot miss (The standard Harden pull-up 3 has become that), other team gets 2-3 points again. Maybe it could have been a 15-3 back breaking run, instead you nullify it with just regular 7-5 variance. So far it has NOT been DEBILITATING though. #4 in Assist/TO ratio is solid no matter what. Still whether its possession-by-possession game or not breaking a string, would be better to be less sloppy.
Blow your top? Pointing out the Harden is currently turning the ball over 40% more than any championship player ever has isn't blowing your top. It's a fact. Is it meaningful in light of winning a championship? Most people here, including you and the OP, think not. A few of us know better. So while you are blowing your top that it doesn't matter, we are countering that claim with facts. It is a fact that no player including Magic, Larry, Isaiah, Michael, Chauncey, Shaq, Kobe, Timmy, Dwyane, LeBron, Dirk, and Steph has ever won a title averaging over 4.1 turnovers a game. It is a fact that Harden is currently averaging 5.8 turnovers a game, over 40% more than any championship player ever has. We're going to see in the playoffs what that means.
LOL The Rockets have been one of the best teams in the NBA in terms of assist to turnover ratio and TOV% recently. I know that you're cheering for us to lose in the playoffs so that you can login in here and say "I told you so", but even if we do lose in the playoffs it won't be because of Harden turning the ball over. It will be because we couldn't make our three point shots. Even Morey said that he brought in Lou Williams to help variance. Was Morey thinking about Harden's turnovers when he traded for Lou Williams? Was he thinking about Ricky Rubio? Or making Harden play off the ball? No, he wasn't. Your next comment is going to be "Well, Harden makes all the personnel decisions now and Morey and Les just do whatever he says." My response to that will be.
morey does not have an eating problem. he's just big boned and happens to have 3 or 4 chins. let the man eat his double bacon cheeseburgers in peace!
This thread is an example of data mining. First come up with a conclusion, then find data to support your conclusion. Is Harden's TO problem as bad as some make it out to be? No. We're 3rd in the West. But is it nothing? Harden has had 1 NBA season with an Assist to Turnover ratio >2. Even Jeremy Lin has had more. The 2-3 possessions he pisses away from lackluster passes isn't trivial. Yes, in games where the final margin is >+/- 5, it probably doesn't matter that much. But if it is preventable, it isn't a matter of forcing the action or making 'good' turnovers (ie turnovers resulting from a pass that would have lead to a >80% scoring opportunity such as a dunk or layup or a charge called against in the key), then it is worth discussing and worth improving on.
Well first of all how do you know better? Aren't you the guy who said BJ Armstrong was getting a lot of Cred among players because of how he "protected" DMO's interest and how DMo would be getting a better deal from another team? Now you're claiming you know better? How about when you said Rubio would be perfect from the Rockets when he can't hit the broad side of a barn? 28% 3 pt shooter would be a perfect fit on the team that shoots the highest number of 3s and is the most 3 dependent team in the NBA and you know better? Facts have no meaning without any insightful analysis. In your case you're looking at the wrong facts and drawing the wrong conclusions, just like when you said with 100% certainty Terrence Jones would be out of the NBA after his rookie year because he can't hit a shot. Your argument is basically just saying "it's never been done before, so it will never happen". By that logic there's never been a guy named James Harden who won a ring before, I guess he'll never win a ring then. Wait, didn't Cavs just win last year by going back from 1-3? How come they were able to do something that's never been done before but the Rockets can't? If the Rox's turnovers are so bad how come they are no 3 in the league with Harden averaging 5.3 turnovers a game, 40% more than any championship player has? So you mean to tell me Rockets can win 70% of their games with Harden averaging 5.3 turnovers but they won't win a game in the playoffs because of turnovers? In fact, the last game against the Clippers Harden had 7 turnovers, yet Houston owned Clipps by as much as 30 pts at one point. If you actually plot the points you will see there is very little to no correlation between Harden's turnovers vs the team's wins or losses. If Harden's turnovers are so vital to rox success how come they blow out teams when he gets 5-7 turnovers a night? You can't answer any of these questions that's why you keep harping on about history, there's no logical basis for connecting Harden's turnovers and the team's wins and losses in fact that's what the article is saying and proving with analytics, logic and substantial analysis. You're just too blinded by your own ideas and hubris you can't see it. Have you ever heard of the Paretto principle? Harden's turnovers belong to the 70% of other things which account for only 30% of the outcome. Rox 3 pt percentage is 5x more important than Harden's turnovers when it comes to winning games. Maybe Rox turnovers as a whole can have a bigger impact, but the thing is Rockets have average turnovers overall that's why Harden's individual turnovers don't really matter.
Once the playoffs start, EVERY damn possession is important. You turn the ball over you pissed away an opportunity to score. Playoff games are tight, and if you want a make a deep run you're talking about playing teams like the Warriors, Spurs, Cavs, you don't think TO/lost opportunities to score won't come back to bite them in the ASS against teams like this??? You lose to GS by 4 pts and Harden has 29 pts and 8 TO, you think Harden is going to be laying in bed thinking about the 29 pts? He'll no!! Go ask any professional player about their memories in the playoffs and for the most part they'll tell you about the plays they didn't make (the regrets). The freakin turnovers!!! As much as Harden handles the rock there's going to be TO. However it's the careless/sloppy TO that he really needs to clean up in the playoffs. You don't think TO are critical during the last four minutes of a close playoff game? You talk about the advantage of trading a two for a three well what about trading a two or a three (or hell one FT) to NOTHING because you turned the freakin ball over because you didn't take care of it. For all of you who think Harden can do no wrong (and TO aren't an issue), I damn well guarantee you if you asked him what part of his game he needs to clean up come the playoffs he'd say taking care of the ball better.
Yes. Morey brought in Lou to shoot even more threes to try to offset Hardens turnovers. Team assist/turnover rate simply tells you that the rest of the guys aren't turning it over. That's good. But it has to be put into context. They aren't attempting to make plays. They simply catch and shoot or throw it back to Harden. What Harden's turnovers tell us is this is once again, for the fifth straight season, a one-dimensional team. We have one and only playmaker, by design. And that is going to show up in the playoffs. I don't want that. Ain't anything weider than one fan saying another fan wants his team to lose. .....weirdo. But I've watched a lot of basketball in my time. And this is our fifth season with Harden here. And we haven't got close to winning a championship yet. And we should have. Because Harden is a top 5 player and well capable of leading a team to a championship. But he simply does not want to share the offensive work load so that we could have a multi-dimensional offensive attack and he refuses to grind with the guys defensively. Weirdo, that's a recipe for failure after failure. Harden's turnovers are the product of him doing too much offensively. They're a product of a one-dimensional offensive system. And it will show in the playoffs. But weirdos don't get it. Because they're weird.
Not worthy of a response when you intentionally misquote me and lie about what I said. Another weirdo.
Yes, we're a one dimensional team that lives and dies at the three point line. Not sure what that has to do with Harden, though. We brought in Lou Williams because he fits the system and is an MDA type player that moves the scoring needle and helps make us an even better three point team since the guy shoots corner threes about as well as Olajuwon shot post up fadeways. I'm not sure why you continue to focus on the minor details, though. The Rockets are currently on pace to be one of the best offensive juggernauts the NBA has ever seen. We're right up there with the 90's Bulls and the Showtime Lakers in terms of offensive rtg. If you're a fan of the team you should be happy about that as opposed to b****ing about every minor tid bit with each post you make. Just relax and enjoy the show, Holic. Stay weird too.
I skimmed through the article. Interesting. However, comparing a guard who handles the ball in the backcourt to a player who tends to handle the ball in traffic is not an apples-to-apples comparison. The Rockets are 24th in team TOV%. That's bad, but actually an improvement over previous years since Harden joined: 2011: 2nd (4th in offense overall) --- McHale replaces Adelman as coach --- 2012: 14th (12th in offense overall) --- Harden joins team --- 2013: 30th (6th in offense overall) 2014: 29th (4th in offense overall) 2015: 28th (12th in offense overall) 2016: 27th (7th in offense overall) --- D'antoni replaces McHale/Bickerstaff as head coach --- 2017 (current): 24th (2nd in offense overall) The D'antoni Suns teams, with Nash as the PG, were generally very low turnover teams. They were always top 5 in protecting the ball, except the final year when Shaq was added to the mix. I can't conclude from the above that Harden is chiefly responsible for our turnover problems. Just something else to consider.
