This is something that has been discussed earlier this season in regards to Kawhi Leonard. In particular in the article below, the Bulls would just have Butler/Wade whoever Kawhi was guarding stand near half court to prevent Kawhi from being able to help out his teammates etc. http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/k...at-at-defense-hes-actually-hurting-the-spurs/
Taking a defender out of the play is something that teams have been doin this year against SA and Kawhi .
MUCH better spacing. Passing and driving lanes are more open. It's incredibly hard to cover a player one on one, it's all about help defense behind a primary on-ball defender. As a player with the ball you wouldn't even drive in the direction where a help defender is already waiting for you, your options may already be limited by how the defense is set up. If you don't have to worry about help defenders, or worry less about them, the defense is at your mercy. Four defenders simply cannot cover the same amount of space that five can, even if there is one less offensive player to account for. Imagine the NFL were 9v9 instead of 11v11 and the defense had to get rid of safeties. It would look like arena football in terms of scores. The field is huge, you can't play zone defense with nine people. A basketball court isn't as big, but it is hard to cover with four people. You don't have to play organized ball to see this, just think about how much easier it is to score in a 2v2 or 3v3 game instead of 5v5. No one can come over to cut off your drive once you get past your man.
the article says the problem is tha pau and tony parker are terrible defenders. S I don't understand why the thought process is: "Hey, harden is standing 25 feet away instead of 20, therefore Eric Gordon, Sam Dekker and Corey brewer get past their man with ease. Then after that, there is no help defense in sight and they get a wide open shot." That doesn't make sense, and it wasn't at all the case last night. Sure, they made shots and won which is great, but I think this logic is a bit flawed. There is a reason harden has to create so much offense, and its not because our role players win off the dribble with ease. The above article about teams doing the same thing with leonard is more about the below average defensive capabilities of his teammates than it is about the ease to score in 4v4 situations. Also, I think if you asked pop if he would rather have role players beat him than stars, he would answer with a resounding yes IMO.
I didn't comment on our performance last night or the effect teams taking Kawhi out of play has on the Spurs' defense. I really haven't studied either situation. I only answered that guy's question as to why 4v4 is harder to guard than 5v5. Four guys will have a tougher time guarding the same amount of space as five guys. That is all. And if you asked Popovich that question, I think he'd say it depends on which role players and which stars you're talking about.
Parker and Pau are terrible defenders, Aldridge isn't great either, Green is decent but a lot of the Spurs hinges on Kawhi being an eraser
it may not always work but as a surprise element it could work sometimes because defenses are not prepared for it their whole game plan is how to stop harden when he penetrates etc then suddenly they have to guard 4 vs 4
this is why its mind boggling that they do much better with kawhi off the floor at least that was case earlier according to stats
My bad man...I assumed you had been following the earlier posts. I was arguing that in the rockets' case i didn't think 4v4 was as big of an advantage as some do. I'm sure popovich would say something like that, yes. but at the end of the day the goal is to make someone like LBJ or Curry less effective and live with the results. Butler, maybe not as much so.
It's not really up for debate. It's taught from the junior high level and upward that more space benifits the offense. NBA skill level only accentuates a natural part of the game. If you are going to go against one of the most well proven theories in all of basketball, both statistically and otherwise, you should probably cite at least one source.
Really? Do you think Tony Allen would continue to guard Harden if he never entered the play? Do you think it would work the same way if we did it every time? The questions are rhetorical. I'm just trying to her you caught up.
Wow. We are just never going to agree on the basic premise of the thread topic are we? You can "sag" all you want, but if the defense doesn't come out to guard a man 35' away from the basket without the ball then it is 4x5, not 4x4 Aggressive ball denial at 35' out is not an offensive choice; it is a defensive choice. I'm so confused you could flip that around enough to think we are totally talking about two different things. One counter to that ball denial tactic by the defense is the OP "play" to ignore the ball denial and go 4x4 We just aren't connecting whatsoever on what the topic is. Would it help if I post a vid of some plays? I can probably find teams doing it against SAS/Kawhi ball denial as well. Btw: not comfortable with the word "sag" in this context.
These aren't the same situations as the OP play. Bulls are merely moving Butler to weak side as a spot up shooter. Kawhi guards Ariza like that quite a lot too. This is 5x5 basketball. I never did get the point of that article. Kawhi will guard Klay that way too, when GSW moves him to weak side. Same thing with Durant last year when WB would take it strong side. Hell vice verse too when Kawhi would guard WB, they swing to Durant's side. Anyhoot: That isn't the high ball denial defense that creates the 4x4 of the OP.
First of all, it is obvious that Tony Allen not being involved is less of a burden of memphis than James Harden not being involved is on the Rockets. I mean, that truly needs no explanation. Secondly, I think it is unfair to use a comparison of junior high level basketball to argue against what I am saying, so let me restate it for you. James Harden is a top 5 NBA player playing with a cast of role players who are considered by everyone who follows NBA to be less talented than the role players on other contending teams. With that said, James Harden's ability to create offense is the reason this team is able to have so much success. When he stands at the top of the key and relies on the other players to beat their men off the dribble this team struggles, that is proven.
A lot more goes into NBA offenses and defenses than individual matchups, but if Popovich had a choice between LBJ going at Kawhi and Irving going at Parker, he'd probably choose the former and the Cavs would prefer the latter.
The defense HAS to come cover harden. That was your earlier point, and I agreed with it. I am just saying that it is not something I would want to see done a lot because it neutralizes this teams greatest advantage, the beard! Notice I refrained from using "sag" that is uncomfortable now that I think about it.
Rockets going 4x4 will have a higher ORtg than any 5x5 unit. That holds true whether the best player is on the court or not, especially when you take the best defender off the court too. "I mean, that truly needs no explanation." It's because the entire game of basketball at the NBA level will sport a significantly higher ORtg at 4x4 than 5x5. As @MorningZippo says, this is so fundamental to the game that you really need to start citing sources to continue.
ya I get that. but in the assumed 4v4 context we are speaking of, individual defense is all that matters because supposedly help defense doesn't exist 4v4 (which is not true). I see what you are saying, but I think pop would take Irving over LBJ all day (it would probably be green on him).
