EDIT: You DIDN'T start the thread arguing that he was wrongly accused, you started a thread and stated that Jewish organizations should stop pursuing Nazis, and that they're a spiteful and unforgiving lot for doing that.
Originally posted by Lil are you blind or stupid? can you read? ...SPITEFUL, HYPOCRITICAL HATEFUL jews/nazi hunters who placed their desire for vengeance over any consideration of due process, international law, or the American principle that each man is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY... 58 friggin years after the last concentration camp shut down. Since you're bringing up International Law and American principles, THERE IS NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS ON MURDER. You claim to be so bright, yet your writings do not just target 'SPITEFUL, HYPOCRITICAL HATEFUL jews/nazi hunters' who went after innocent folk, you targeted all Jews for their 'hateful' practice (per you) of seeking justice against Nazis...after '58 friggin years'. Nice try. and in this empty pursuit of "justice", the original intentions for publicising the holocaust advocated by elie weisel IS TOTALLY LOST, replaced by a paranoid, blind hatred of "unspeakable evils", a readiness to crusade against anyone at the drop of a few catch-phrases, and the abandonment of any search for root causes or understanding. this "kill the beast" mentality, this mindless "our enemies are just evil, and must be destroyed!!" bloodlust, are the lessons which Americans have instead received from our holocaust education. the shoah remembrance movement today, and the jewish institutions that sponsor it, are the paragons of hypocrisy. Again, more plain racist crap. In your mind ALL discussions of the holocaust should now be banned because ALL references to it are filled with paranoid, blind hatred, and the 'shoah remembrance movement, and the Jewish institutions that sponsor it are now are ALL hypocritical. Thanks for not stereotyping. You're so blind you cannot even see your own racism. You ascribe similar actions across a race, then further ascribe negative stereotypes to such actions, then blame the world's ills on it, BUT NO...YOU'RE NOT RACIST. Unfreakin believable. BTW, care to elaborate on why all of those Jewish institutions are 'paragons of hypocrisy'? What is it that they are all responsible for? you call it justice. i call it blind hate. and for these differences you call me racist. No. For what you feel about Jews I recognize you as racist. I've been lucky to come across very few in my life, but you're a doozy who makes up for so many years of bliss. apparently, most international authorities agree with me. B.S. What international authorities agree that the Jews are spiteful and unforgiving for seeking justice against Nazis? Please tell me, is it the likes of your hero Mahathir Mohamad? You are not even worthy to post Wiesel's words.
I didn't even read about Waldheim because I don't care about him, you condescending idiot. I only cared about the crap that you were spewing in that thread, which was in no way limited to the Waldheim issue. Try agin.
well since you asked to be educated, i'll try: what is hypocrisy: 1) claiming to be not sufficiently representative of the holocaust victims to issue forgiveness for nazi atrocities, but apparently representative enough to claim multi-billion dollar settlements on their behalf. 2) willing to ruin 80 yr men whose guilt have never been proven, while at the same time not even considering action in bringing to "justice" convicted war criminals within israel itself 3) demanding "justice" on 60 year old crimes, while turning a blind eye to blatant crimes against international law (everything about the occupation) for the past 30 years. (oh how foolish of me, i forgot justice is only for jews...). 4) claiming to be the spokemen of a movement whose original intent was to prevent hate, racism, ethnocentrism, and the dehumanisation of others, and at the same time actively supporting the actions of a regime committing exactly those crimes. 5) teaching kids to hate the nazis, while at the same time acknowledging the legitimacy of israel's use of familiar nazi excuses "security" and "living space" and other sorry historical arguments to create an oppressive apartheid regime, violate other nations, build illegal settlements, and develop weapons of mass destruction. ------------------------------------------ Wiesel asked the world to give Israel a chance to fix itself. 18 years later. That chance has expired. Wiesel brought the spirit of tolerance and compassion to the holocaust movement. That spirit has been corrupted. Wiesel believed that Israel can be a symbol of hope and peaceful co-existence for Jewish people around the world. Today Israel is a symbol of evil, an enemy of the world. How did things go so terribly wrong? Why don't you go reflect on that? Instead of trying pathetically to discredit my logic with feeble personal attacks.
Originally posted by Lil well since you asked to be educated, i'll try: what is hypocrisy: 1) claiming to be not sufficiently representative of the holocaust victims to issue forgiveness for nazi atrocities, but apparently representative enough to claim multi-billion dollar settlements on their behalf. Hey idiot, the multi-billion dollar settlements are for the holocaust survivors and their families. The only folks remaining who can issue forgiveness. 2) willing to ruin 80 yr men whose guilt have never been proven, while at the same time not even considering action in bringing to "justice" convicted war criminals within israel itself Hey, Milosovic only needed to evade authorities for about 15 or 20 years? If he only knew. BTW, who are 'convicted war criminals' in Israel? No one. Sharon has not been 'convicted' for anything. Admittedly, a HYPOCRITICAL Israeli court found him responsible for gross negligence for allowing the milita into the camps. Tell me, which hypocrtical Palestinian court has found Arafat responsible for war crimes...you know, intentionally blowing up civilians for years? Again and again, you prove yourself to be one-sided and hypocritical. 3) demanding "justice" on 60 year old crimes, while turning a blind eye to blatant crimes against international law (everything about the occupation) for the past 30 years. (oh how foolish of me, i forgot justice is only for jews...). And all the Jews ask is not to be blown up, and the Palestinians have their nation with no Israeli interference. How incredibly unjust of those Jews. How dare they demand to live in peace. 4) claiming to be the spokemen of a movement whose original intent was to prevent hate, racism, ethnocentrism, and the dehumanisation of others, and at the same time actively supporting the actions of a regime committing exactly those crimes. It's a WAR you fool. At least the Israeli do not intentionally target civilians. You may believe that, but it's unproven. On the other hand, over 60% of Palestinians want Israeli civilians attacked, and 80% want them pushed into the sea. But you would prefer that they just sit back and take it. They did that more than once over the millenia...don't think they'll be so foolish anymore. 5) teaching kids to hate the nazis, while at the same time acknowledging the legitimacy of israel's use of familiar nazi excuses "security" and "living space" and other sorry historical arguments to create an oppressive apartheid regime, violate other nations, build illegal settlements, and develop weapons of mass destruction. If they didn't have WMD, Israel would possibly be gone already. Like your hero mentioned, how can the Jews withstand the onslaught of over a billion Muslims (assuming they united for such a task as your hero suggests). The nazi's were not freakin attacked by the Jews. But Hitler and the nazis blamed them for everyone's ills. Hey, who does that remind you of? ...Wiesel believed that Israel can be a symbol of hope and peaceful co-existence for Jewish people around the world. Today Israel is a symbol of evil, an enemy of the world. How did things go so terribly wrong? Why don't you go reflect on that? Instead of trying pathetically to discredit my logic with feeble personal attacks. I often strongly criticize Israeli policies, but they are locked in a battle for survival. Enemy of the world my ass. Outside of the muslim world, more people are concerned about fundamentalst Muslim terrorists, not Jewish ones. What went wrong? The nascent Israeli nation was attacked by all of it's neighbors and almost destroyed. That's what went wrong. I will speak out vociferously against biased, hateful, racist people like yourself, who clearly seek to blame Jews for everything. BTW, your propensity to ignore questions posed to you shows how weak and flawed your views are. It's really easy to debate a racist.
Just butting in here... I can see why Mahathir can be called a clever politician, but reading some of Lil's posts gives me the impression that Mahathir is some saint advocating for racial equality and world peace, which I find very hard to stomach. Lil: if you have lived in Malaysia before (and I'm assuming you have), you will know what this 'raising the economic status of Malays' entails - giving Malays preferential treatment over other races in education, civil service and business affairs. This is done by instilling quotas on positions by race, and not by merit. Do you at least agree on this point? 'racial harmony', but not racial equality. Lil and Cohen: carry on.
saitou, you agree before malaysia gained its independence (which is only 46 years ago), the malays were severely behind in terms of economy (even now)? the general picture was the malay paddy farmer, the indian rubber tapper and the chinese 'towkay' (big businessman). these 'preferential treatments' were meant to balance the wealth between the 3 races and the indegenous people (which are also given the preferential treatment along with the malays). mahathir was always in favor of banishing this preferential treatment as it wasn't very good for malaysia or even the malays. it made the succesful malays seem dishonest and lazy and the poor malays, which is more than most people think, seem stupid. and some malays (including me and Mahathir) always thought it was humiliating to have to be given an advantage in what is supposed to be a fair playing field. whenever asked about his greatest dissapointment, mahathir has always remarked that he was most dissapointed in not being able to change the mindset of the malays. malaysia is a very very yound country. imagine the USA when she was at age 46. i think you agree with malaysia being racially harmonious. the racial equality will come. as for mahathir's speech, i'm embarassed. i think he didn't mean for it to be so offensive to the jewish community (he has always been saying wrong things and has never been very diplomatic about it). in my opinion he was just using the example to encourage muslims to rise up in this time where islam is at its lowest just like the jews did during the nazi rule.
the holy quran al-zukhruf [88] (Allah has knowledge) of the (Prophet's) cry, "O my Lord! truly these are a people who will not believe!" [89] But turn away from them, and say "Peace!" but soon shall they know! - prophet muhamed ( blessings of god be upon him ) follows ever rule givin by allah
Originally posted by bama …. (If that were true, Israel would rule the entire Mideast, but they do not. They are not aggressive and have only engaged in wars of defense. It was the Arabs who tried to destroy Israel after its founding in 1948.) He means its occupation in 1948 . (It was the Arabs who massed forces in preparation of an offensive against Israel, forcing an Israeli response. It was the Arabs who used Yom Kippur as an opportunity to invade Israel to push the Jews into the sea.) if arabs wanted 2 push the jews into oceans or seas or swamps , every1 wouldve seen killings in the whole world , not only in Palestine . (The Arabs are by nature a violent, bloodthirsty people bent on savagery and my experience over the years has continued to re-affirm that belief. ) MOST of arabs are NIETHER violent NOR bloodthirsty , IF we were , there would’ve been higher average of crimes than u.s .. I dunno what experience is that which didn’t make him find this out ?!?!? .LOL (For chrissakes, they teach their school children that the Jews use the blood of Christian and Muslim children for rituals and cooking! How savage is that? ) they don’t , I would’ve known if they did , im 18 now _______________ whats between the brackets is originally by cohen (Like, the Jews are suicide-bombing other countries because unclean infidels have defiled their holy land simply by setting foot there? Oh wait, those aren't Jews.) like , the zionests are not killing babies purposely , because they occupied a land and they wanna keep it , I proved that zionest terrorists are killing babies and innocent women purposely and no 1 proved otherwise . (Let's get one thing clear, I can keep perspective and do not hold the Muslim world responsible for such actions by a few… I have a high degree of respect for Islam when practiced the way most practice it.) I hope the barbarian bamaliar get this . (BTW, I wish people would stop quoting lil posts. I prefer to not read dribbles from a racist loser ) BTW , I wish that COWARD MINDLESS IDIOTS , get out of their COWARDNESS BUBLES , and reply to what I say , excepting ignoring COWARDLY ( they know who they are , so I better NOT say their name .. well .. unless I change my mind , but ill give hints … coward no#1 : when he didn’t know what to say , he accused me saying : you are brainwashed , specially after I offered him VIDS and PICS . coward no#2 : when I asked him : If 1 of ur cousins stole a home from another , will u stand with the stealer or the 1 who’s home been stolen ? If u stand with stealer , u will prove that ur EVIL ( im NOT saying u r ) . he hid in his COWARDNESS BUBBLE . coward no#3 : when I proved that TERRORIST ZIONESTS do kill babies purposely , he DIDN’T prove otherwise , like the first 2 cowards … Not to mention the other cowards who don’t even think to reply and help their COWARED so-called dudes .
fba: I think that is a huge generalisation to say that the malays were paddy farmer, the indian the rubber tapper and the chinese 'big businessman. But yes, I do agree that the perception was (and to a much much lesser extent now) that the chinese were richer. However, I must ask - why must it even be about race? Why can't Mahathir let the chinese compete with the malays in an open market economy? It's as if the chinese aren't malaysians. It would be harsh to call it South Africa, but isn't this a lesser form of aparthied? Young or not, I think Malaysia's policies are simply racist. Does malaysia really care about giving minority races 'equality', or is 'equality' only viable when it is the malays that are behind? I would say the latter, but this is of course only my opinion, and we may never know the truth to this, unless the chinese start falling drastically behind the malays and the govt steps in and sets quotas to help the chinese. also, if the indians are behind the chinese, shouldn't they be treated in the same class as the malays? A govt that is not racist that wants to overcome the economic divide of its citizens would set policies aimed at specific economic classes. eg. Higher taxes for the rich, subsidised education for the poor etc. Not by race. fba: do you really think the malaysian govt will help out the chinese if they were lagging behind the malays? In relation to Mahathir's comment, I seriously do not think Mahathir's vision for the israeli-palestinian one is an altruistic win-win, equal, situation for both sides. You only have to look at the situation in his own country where he favours those of his own race. This again is opinion. If you are willing to bite the bullet on the question about the govt helping the chinese, then we have no need for further argument, we'll only have opinion to argue on. You notice when I wrote about Malaysia being 'racially harmonious' I kept doing it in scare quotes. To a certain extent this is certainly true. But I just get this feeling that this 'harmony' is a very uneasy one. as the siqiu situation has shown, there is still a lot of racial tension and ill-feeling. Normally, I would not blame the government for such sentiments, they can't control how everyone feels about other races. The problem with the Malaysian one is that they are part of the problem, and help to perpetuate it. fba: do you agree that Mahathir has been prone to playing the racial card whenever he is down on other issues to divert attention?
Countries based on a Christian Philosophy are going to lean more in the direction of protection of the Holy Land and the cradle of Christianity. We , South America and Europe have our foundation in the Ten Commandments not in Islamic Law.
why is it about race? well maybe because there's some truth to the huge generalisation i just made. the richest people in malaysia are chinese. letting the chinese compete with the malays in an open market economy is not as easy as it sounds. look at the world as an example, is it an open market? we're not on a level playing field. but i do think the malays and even the chinese wants it to be a level playing field. but for it to work, which is to be advantageous to the whole nation, it has to be done step by step, not leaving anyone behind. i hope the people of my race one day can be competitive without any 'handouts', but right now, it would be like throwing a deer into a lion's cage and hoping it would defend itself. a member of my family has a personal experience. she wanted to open a shop lot in one of the biggest shopping malls in the country, she was the only malay to request for a lot (the others were all taken by chinese bussiness owners), and the mall owner made her jump through hoops. she only got it because her address on her i.d. is close to the home of the current deputy prime minister, and she said she knew him personally when the owner asked her. i think racist is too harsh a word to describe malaysian policies. if you have all the solution to malaysia's problems, then you should air them out. i think you answered your first question, we may never know it. but let me ask you, right now, the malays ARE behind, do you not want to help them? if i am in a position to decide, say one day if the chinese are behind, yes. of course you can completely disregard this since its not happening and its easy for me to hand out empty promises. but thats my answer and you can call me liar. higher taxes for the rich, i'm all for that since i'm poor as a student. lol. but again, its easier said than done. rich people have the money to lobby for people to fight for them (and this happens not only in malaysia). and the ones with money know best how to deal with it. there's so many tricks of the trade on making it go away that in the end, the ones who are paying for more taxes are the middle to high income group. subsidised education for the poor, i agree. and there are scholarship money handed out to everyone. but again, look at how many chinese students who's parents can easily afford to send their kids around the world to get any type of degree they want. but then again, its the kids good fortune to be born to rich parents. so its not his fault. i really think you have this idea that the malays are all rich and sucking down money from the tax payer's teat. there are more poor malays than you think. i dont think any of us know him well enough to say what he wants out of the israel-palestine issue. i think malaysia's general outlook on the problem is on par with the rest of the world. there wont be any peace between them UNLESS its a win-win situation. again you say he favors his own race. the last election, the malays were divided between him and the opposition, the ones who helped him out? the chinese and the indians. and thats not an opinion. i dont know where you get this 'uneasy' harmony, but perhaps you should voice it more openly and get more people's opinions on it and see wether its a personal thing or a real issue. i'm sorry if you are uneasy about us malaysians (i still dont know wether you are a malaysian or had been to the country and follow its news religiously). this is pretty funny, since i've never been a supporter of mahathir, but looking from my posts, it looks like i am. i've always made fun of his foot-in-mouth disease and his die-hard supporters (ass worshippers). and those who usually tell me off are the non-malays. i think during the last national day celebration, i though every race in malaysia came out pretty evenly to celebrate, not just any one race and the others not feeling malaysian. wether or not he plays the racial card to divert attention? i dont remember honestly. and what do you mean by 'playing the racial card'? does he blame his problems on other people cos of their race?
I think you're mixing up an open market policy with a level playing field for everyone with financial equality for everyone. What you're after sounds more like communism to me. In an open market you will have both rich and poor people. It's about giving everyone an equal opportunity to succeed based on their ability and how much work they put. If your sister has been discriminated against because of her race, then certainly this needs to be addressed. But affirmative action should not be taken to the point where it discriminates against other races. I do not claim to hold all the solutions to malaysia's problems as you say, but that does not mean malaysian policies are discriminatory and thus racist. No, I certainly do not think all malays are rich and sucking down money from taxpayers. But you seem to think that all chinese are rich, and will not be disadvantaged by these circumstances. I have chinese cousins in Malaysia who in the past missed out on university places due to the quota system. They are not poor, but neither are they rich enough to go over to australia to get a degree. Don't you think this is discriminatory? Also, you say it is hard to tax the rich at a higher rate because they have "tricks" to avoid it. So are you saying that instead we should make it harder for chinese to get jobs (limiting their education, etc.) to even the wealth since by generalisation most of the rich people are chinese? And as to your question, we should even make judgements whether the malays or chinese or indians are behind. Everyone should be treated as malaysians, not by their race. Why did they support him? mahathir is a politician, to get their votes he promised he would give them more equal rights. I am not Malaysian, and do not follow everything religiously as you say, so correct me if i'm wrong, but have these promises of equality been fulfilled so far (as promised)? Last I heard he did a u-turn. http://www.malaysia.net/aliran/monthly/2000/10c.html In pre-‘Anwar affair’ and pre-Reformasi days, the standard Mahathirist response to oppositionist challenges was to cast out two lines of fishy arguments. The first type of argument – call it ‘red baiting’ – pinpointed Chinese ‘communism’, ‘chauvinism’, ‘disloyalty’, or whatever was usefully provocative, to keep the Malays in a ‘Malay unity’ fold to preserve ‘Malay supremacy’. when talking about uneasiness, i was talking about the more extreme muslim groups that were threatening protests over the siqiu issue, giving more rights to minority groups. Also, as a malay and in the majority you may not feel the repression of others as acutely as they do. are my cousins happy with their situation? do they feel discriminated against because of their race? what do you think?
-EDIT- And as to your question, we not should even make judgements whether the malays or chinese or indians are behind. Everyone should be treated as malaysians, not by their race.
EDIT I do not claim to hold all the solutions to malaysia's problems as you say, but that does not mean malaysian policies are not discriminatory and thus racist.
A large number of new Malaysian college grads weren't getting jobs once they graduated. What were their majors? Islamic studies (equivalent of art history) Good luck pumping gas.
i think communism is so far to the other end of the spectrum that it shouldn't have been brought up. again, giving everyone a chance to succeed based on how much work they put on is idealistic, not realistic at this moment. capital means more now than hard work can ever do. the rich will overtake the poor and the new so easily without their protection. but i think yes, we all want it to be based on merits. so i think thats as far as we will go there. when i think of racist policies, i think of nazi germany and the likes. maybe i'm too sensitive but it sounds very insulting. yes it is unfortunate. but the chinese also have their own scholarships handed to their own. huge companies (like the newspapers) owned by chinese families routinely hand out scholarships to chinese student. and these places you mentioned are public universities. again, the system is not perfect, but we do have private universities that are world known with much lower tution fees than say australia. again, given time, hopefully it will stop all together. no, the people need to speak up and say its unfair that the rich aren't paying all they should. but the rest of us has no say in it unfortunately. how has malaysia made it harder for its chinese citizens to get jobs? education? see above. its well known that for a malay businessman, the government will help him out get started (paying for his store rent for a year, free counselling, etc) but after he gets his foot in the door, its not a level playing field. chinese business stick to what they are most familiar with, and this in part is due to the preferential treatment the malays get in the first place (which is why i think it should be stopped). well that would be idealistic. race is a big issue everywhere, to let the other races continue to slide will be a bigger problem in the future. until he or his party is voted out of the government, i guess the general concensus is that the non malays are happy with the progress of his promise. if not, vote him out. what was the u-turn he did? http://www.malaysia.net/aliran/monthly/2000/10c.html In pre-‘Anwar affair’ and pre-Reformasi days, the standard Mahathirist response to oppositionist challenges was to cast out two lines of fishy arguments. The first type of argument – call it ‘red baiting’ – pinpointed Chinese ‘communism’, ‘chauvinism’, ‘disloyalty’, or whatever was usefully provocative, to keep the Malays in a ‘Malay unity’ fold to preserve ‘Malay supremacy’. when talking about uneasiness, i was talking about the more extreme muslim groups that were threatening protests over the siqiu issue, giving more rights to minority groups. Also, as a malay and in the majority you may not feel the repression of others as acutely as they do. are my cousins happy with their situation? do they feel discriminated against because of their race? what do you think? [/B][/QUOTE] the thing with the opposition party, there's one party who wants it to be a full islamic nation, and another want who wants all preferential treatments off now. i guess the government right now is somewhere in between these 2 and are trying to create a balance of them. as you can see, this malay unity is just a cry for the malay vote, which i've mentioned is divided. i'm sorry for your cousins not getting a place in the university, but thats just the way it is until every race is equally balanced. the chinese community just have to wait for the others to catch up. well those who ARE behind happens to be malays. if there are poor chinese people that needs help, the givernment should help, if they're not already getting it by their people.
