It's hard for me to say Lebron is clearly better than some of those guys at this moment...maybe yes if he wins more rings in the years to come. I can't imagine what fans would say if they time travel to modern era. Wilt could average 40/20, and Oscar may still average triple double. Dream in the right situation could win way more rings as well...just think how many rings Lebron would get if he's in the same era of MJ and Dream.
Why do people continue to compared "seasons" played. LeBron James has already played 57 more regular season games than Michael Jordan as a Bull. LeBron has also played in 20 more playoff games than Jordan. I understand how people are wowed by LeBron's 7 Finals appearances and think it's harder to do. I'm sorry, but it's just not. There is zero respect for his opponents in his conference. He's on the best team in the EAST for nearly his entire career with absolutely no one to oppose them. Before that, it was the Celtics and Pistons and the Cavs never beat them. Well, the CAVS went to the Finals after they beat the Pistons who already lost 4X DPOTY Ben Wallace and HOF coach Larry Brown. Sorry but thats not the same Pistons team. Yet, that's still the toughest team he ever beat. Any top 10 player in their prime could lead those teams to the Finals in that weak ass conference every year. With LeBron having played 20 more games in the playoffs(basically a full more season of playoff basketball-94 retirement), he needs to beat 11 more 50 win teams to tie MJ. That's how grueling MJ's conference was. People do compare LBJ's EC reign to Magic's WC reign, but at least Magic had to face HOF'ers and top 30 players of all time in the conference before getting to the Finals and facing top 20 of all time in their prime. Magic has also beaten more 3 more 50+ win teams in the playoffs in 9 less games than LeBron has currently played. But, it is pretty comparable. LBJ needs 2 more trophies and 2 more FMVP to jump to #3 ahead of Magic IMO.
Why are you using 50 wins as a guage? Why not 55, 60, 65 or 70 wins? Magic may have played against some great individual players in the West in the 80's, but their teams were rarely great. His path was just as "weak" as LeBron's is now. Edit: If you use 55 wins as a guage, LeBron only trails Jordan by 5. Jordan vs 55 win Teams 1989 – 57 win Cavs 1991 – 58 win Lakers 1992 – 57 win Cavs and 57 win Blazers 1993 – 60 win Knicks and 62 win Suns 1996 – 60 win Magic and 64 win Sonics 1997 – 56 win Hawks, 61 win Heat and 64 win Jazz 1998 – 58 win Pacers and 62 win Jazz LeBron vs 55 win Teams 2011 – 56 win Celtics and 62 win Bulls 2012 – 58 win pace Thunder 2013 – 58 win Spurs 2014 – 56 win Pacers 2015 – 60 win Hawks 2016 – 56 win Raptors and 73 win Warriors If you use 70 wins as a guage then Jordan trails LeBron.
You're saying LeBron will be undisputed GOAT if he ends his carer with 1 less ring and FMVP than MJ in a lot more time than MJ needed? The only way i see LeBron being GOAT is to tie MJ in rings and FMVP's and continue to pile on total numbers. Like by 40 years old, be top 5 in scoring, top 5 in assists, top 10 in rebounds, etc. Even then, you will have die hard MJ fans like myself who still will have MJ ahead because we know if he played his career through, there's no doubt in our minds he'd dominate those "totals" lists. There is this article that did all the math for me, it's from bleacher report so i won't post the link, but basically, if MJ had never retired twice, adding his 94 and 95 full 82 game totals in his prime with minimal production loss + adding 99(short lockout season) and 2000 while deducting 10 percent for a gradual rate of decline for three successive years. At the age of 37, he'd comfortably #1 All time points leader, #1 All time Steals, Top 10 Assists, #2 Rebounding guard behind Kidd, already is #1 blocking guard as of now in real life. Imagine if he never broke his foot in his second season and played that full season probably averaging no less than 33, 5 and 5. Hell thats all with subtracting his Wizards years in which he still was damn good for such an old man. But, that's all what if's. Who knows if he would have had a serious injury like Kobe from wear and tear? Who knows if LeBron won't soon, though i bet his body can take the pounding of another 6 years minimum, the question is will he be skilled enough once his athletic ability is all but gone to keep winning? So yeah, i think LeBron has a chance to play straight through til he's 40 and just rack up those totals like Kareem did to pass Wilt. Even though Wilt dominated in far less time, no one seems to care and just bring up Kareems totals over Wilt. Same thing will happen with MJ and LeBron. Assuming of course LeBron can go the long haul, which i'm willing to bet he can. He's got that Karl Malone in him. Tying MJ's rings and FMVP's is the harder part.
Lebron has had one on the ground crying in pain incident in his career (this Finals Game 7). I don't recall another. Meanwhile Jordan has been on the ground in pain how many times? And Jordan had a tons of breaks in his career. I think Lebron has more games and minutes as well.
Cavs beat Warriors but had things like Green suspension, Bogut and Iguodala injuries help them and still barely won. If you replayed the Finals a million times, I think Warriors win more often than not so IMHO Warriors are better. At best you can argue that Cavs are as good as the Warriors and win 50/50 of those million hypothetical Finals. But the central point is indisputable. Cavs had a much easier path to the championship. Firstly, I don't think the Cavs could have gotten the #1 seed by going better than Warriors' 73-9! Let's be optimistic and say they get the #2 seed if they were in the West and take the place of the Spurs. Cavs won the championship by going through Pistons, Hawks, Raptors and Warriors. The Spurs have to go through Grizzlies, Thunder, Warriors and Cavs. Only an idiot would choose to go through the Spurs path vs the Cavs path if they had to bet their life on which team would get to the Finals.
In my life time he's far and away the best player I've ever seen. I've only seen MJ, Hakeem, etc. in highlights I didn't get to see them play every night
Your blind loyalty to MJ is helping you forget that with prime Celtics big 3 - he never did get past them. Only at the tail end of prime bad-boys, after they had destroyed MJ's teams for years and won championships did he then, finally, beat them. Those were the dominant Eastern conference teams of his day, and he ate 0-fer, after 0-fer, went through coaches, teammates, etc until he finally put it together. LeBron, basically at the age a college junior or sr would have been, put a team of basically you, me, and my kids on his back and willed them to the NBA finals. What's so impressive about who MJ beat? B/c he never beat prime celtics and he went 1/3 against prime bad boys. In fact, the year MJ won his first title the bad boys knocked out the celtics - with 34 y/o Bird and 33 y/o McHale. So, what's so impressive? Take your time. I'll wait. So earlier you were dismissed counting stats b/c of LBJ's 7 finals appearances and now are you citing them (1 less ring). Look, it's entirely subjective. If I had one offensive possession to win a game it would probably depend on the defense/defender as to whether I pick MJ or LBJ. But, as a basketball player - a rebounder, a passer, court vision, floor general, efficiency, and overall excellence. Yeah, 4 or 5 more years of prime LBJ with another 2 rings means he takes the cake for me. He's had pressure to be the "King" since he was in high school. MJ was getting benched by Dean Smith for showboat dunks at the age LBJ was making first team All-NBA. And, I already showed you above the whole "weak conference" argument is garbage. MJ beat 1 other championship eastern conference team in his ENTIRE CAREER in the playoffs - the 89/90 bad boys. Umm...So?
as it stands, jordan got more ships. when lebron has the same number of ships, getting to more finals is of course a plus.
Bill Russell has more ships, and he even got a ship as a player, as a coach and as a playing coach MJ stans are so funny, if you say LBJ has better stats then MJ has more rings, then if you say Russell has more rings you say MJ has more stats. Well obviously he'll never stop being GOAT if you keep moving the standards around. You make fun of Lebron for quitting on one game and transferring on one team, but then conveniently forget MJ quit on basketball altogether and only came back because he sucked in baseball. What if MJ had good talent in base ball? I bet he never comes back to basketball. Am I saying Lebron is the GOAT now? Of course not, MJ still has more accolades. But the excuses people make for MJ are so funny, LBJ has an easy path? Well what about MJ, when he came on the scene Bird/Magic were already old and Detroit were in their prime so when MJ peaked those guys were also old already. MJ didn't even have a proper rival because the next best wing player in the era actually became his sidekick! Even MJ believed his own hype talking about he would want to beat Magic or Bird instead of teaming up with them conveniently forgetting he had Pippen by his side his entire career, if he really wanted to make it hard why didn't he leave the Bulls and went to a crappy team like Toronto Raptors and mentored young VC and Tmac?
OK? So they had an easier time to reach the finals, I never disputed that. But Finals is different from Championship, no matter how they get there you still need to beat the best team from the other conference, which is GSW. And the Cavs still beat GSW in 7 games, and that's a FACT. You may THINK that GSW will beat Cavs in a 1M but all this is just speculation on your part and contrary to what really happened so I dunno why you keep harping on something which never happened in real life. So your logic is flawed because you keep equating finals with championship, for some reason you think Cleveland who beat GSW would suddenly be beaten by teams GSW already beat that doesn't really make any sense unless you think Spurs or OKC is better than GSW in the first place. Injuries happen all the time what about Love who suffered a concussion so basically Cavs win doesn't count because Bogut and Green are injured well what about KLove playing like **** due to his injury that's supposed to be ignored? Even Mozgov has been hurt which caused his performance this year to drop off but then that's ok but we excuse GSW for having fragile players like Bogut or Steph Curry with his chronic ankle issues? You can play the what if game all you want why does that somehow change what really happened? Look, MJ Started in an era where Magic, Bird and Pistons were already peaked or declining, and then he made the 2nd best wing player in the league his side kick instead of his rival, why aren't you holding that against him? You're moaning and complaining about how Cavs had an easy time to the finals but never considered how Kobe entered into the league with Shaq as the single most dominant player at the time or how MJ never had an opponent as good as the Bulls on paper when they were having their 2 three peats. How many HOF guys did MJ play with? Phil Jackson, Pippen, Kerr, Rodman, well what about Lebron are you sure Irving or Kevin Love will become HOF players? Newsflash every dynasty has had stacked teams even Magic got so many assists just passing it to Kareem Abdul Jabbar and watching him use the skyhook. Why does Lebron have to go through the hardest path ever or it doesn't count but other players get a free pass in your mind?
Your whole logic is basically this. The Cavs beat the Warriors barely in a seven game series needing Green suspension, Bogut/Iguodala injuries and last minute contested 3 pt shot. And by barely beating the Warriors they are a "tier" above them. And since the best of the West was the Warriors, the Cavs are a tier above Thunder and Spurs as well. I already conceded that you can claim the Cavs are as good as the Warriors, Thunder or Spurs. But you have not (and nobody would be convinced), that the Cavs are a tier above all those teams. I think most people would say all four teams are more or less on par. Let's get back to the origins of the whole side-argument. Someone said that if the Cavs were in the West they might not even make the Finals. Well unless you think the Cavs are a "tier" above the Spurs, Thunder and Warriors, then that is objectively true. Let me demonstrate. Put it this way. You have to bet your life on the Cavs making the finals. - One scenario is the real life one with Cavs as the #1 seed in the East and Spurs are #2 seed in the West. - Another scenario is where Cavs and Spurs swap places just before the playoffs. Spurs are now #1 seed in the East and Cavs are now #2 seed in the West and have to beat Thunder and Warriors twice in a row to make the Finals. If you would be much more hesitant to bet your life on Scenario #2, then you would then agree that Cavs have a much harder time making the Finals from the West and we have no disagreement. But if you want to claim you would be just as comfortable betting your life on Scenario #1 as Scenario #2 as far as making the Finals goes, then I have nothing more to say except 99.9999% of people would disagree with you!
I think top 5. He has shown he can win with the right pieces next to him, and get far in the playoffs with a cast of scrubs.
We still having this discussion? Cant people just accept fans from different era will always have their GOAT. From Oscar to Wilt to Kareem to Magic/ Bird to Jordan/Dream to Shaq/Kobe to Lebron. Personally I will always pick Dream as the greatest and then Magic as the 2nd, MJ and the others are just playing for the 3rd best player. Why? Dream and Magic redefine the center and PG. One being a smaller but more mobile center, and the other being that big man can handle the ball as well.
Of course if the Cavs were in the West there's a chance they might not even make the finals, there's always a chance for everything the Rockets had a chance to win a championship last year. But this is all just speculation and contrary to the facts on what really happened. I don't understand how can OKC, Spurs, GSW and Cavs be equal when Cavs and GSW reached the Finals and Cavs won the ring? If beating everyone in a 7 game series doesn't count as saying one team is better than the other then what metric do you use? You're not "conceding" anything by saying GSW and Cavs are a tier above OKC and Spurs, it is a FACT because those two teams reached the finals and the other teams didn't. GSW even had the best record in the team in the regular season why the **** are they equal to Spurs and OKC? So they not only beat everyone the most they also beat all the WC teams but in your book they are just equal to OKC and Spurs? Before you make an assumption that is contrary to what is reality you should have some basis first, what metric shows that Spurs and OKC are just as good as GSW and the Cavs, because basing on their playoff performance they are clearly inferior teams. A lot of things can be speculated to death, what I'm saying is using the argument that LBJ had an easier path to the Finals to discredit his championship is wrong because every year luck plays a significant part in winning championships. It is LBJ's luck that he went to the Cavs at a time when the East is weak, in the same way that is MJ's luck he went to the Bulls who had a great GM and great coach instead of a team like the Rockets who had an injured Ralph Sampson and a backcourt that were drug addicts. And also while his path to the finals was easier, at the end of the day LBJ still had to beat the best team from the West to be the Champion so to be honest I don't see any value on this theoretical exercise, all this hemming and hawing in order to discredit Lebron James fails in the face of the first finals team to overcome a 3-1 deficit, historic playoff performance and his 3rd shiny new ring. They are the champs, and they are the best team in the league this season and Lebron is the best player in the league this year. Period.
Exactly, you cannot even compare it. There will never be 1 player who's the best of all. As much as people like to believe MJ is GOAT. Magic, Lebron, Bird, Oscar, Wilt or even Dream, nobody is the single-best player of all time. Ever.
My top 11: 1. MJ 2. Lebron 3. Kareem 4. Wilt 5. Duncan 6. Dream 7. Shaq 8. Magic 9. Russell 10. Bird 11. Kobe
Agree to disagree. MJ is the greatest at this point. Any argument otherwise would be only a half-assed attempt to disprove a majority opinion. MJ's numbers and accolades are simply superior to everyone else. The only area he doesn't dominate is longevity, which is somewhat significant, but ultimately oveerated.
