Florida Night Club Shooting - at least 20 dead - impact on US elections?

CNN: Omar Mateen: Gunman made surveillance trips to Disney complex, Pulse, officials say

 

It looks like he's justifying his lunatic stances by aligning himself with the groups known for their heinous acts.

Dude is just bonkers psychologically. I had that feeling that this was more of a hate crime than a terrorist attack and now, it's looking more and more like it.

 

LOL, it's not looking like that at all. It's 100% a terrorist act and IMO terrorist acts are always based in "hate"....you don't terrorize people you don't hate. He was pretty clearly a radicalized Muslim, I don't see why some are trying to gloss over that.

 

I was being charitable and using literary license. If you had presented me with a cross-country comparison with a N=2 in any statistics, econometrics, or research study, I'd fail you. Period.

You're the one implying I'm bound by "buddies". I don't care for their ideas as much as I care for yours if they're claiming that gun ownership ratios and state gun laws don't matter. They do.

Well, when you put it that way, the whole War on Terror is based, on what, a death rate of 0.00001 per 100,000 people? The 4th Amendment and 5th tarnished, a legacy of torture, hundreds of thousands of non-American civilian deaths--for 0.00001 per 100,000 people?

What should be the policy response to 3.5 deaths per 100,000 people.

If you feel bound by "thread etiquette" to not condemn an increased suicide rate, so be it. My goal in this thread is to point out that reasonable gun laws lead to positive outcomes.

The Freakonomics analysis of this attributes a lot of the trendline to legalized abortion in the United States. The difference-within-difference of homicides by firearms and homicides in general is highly suggestive of firearm reduction playing a role.

Anyways, I provided the data--now you're providing rationalizations of said data. But thank you for not denying the data.

There are reasonable gun laws that do not conflict with Heller, as you well know.

Of course, the argument here is "why bother, it's an unsolvable problem, too many Americans have guns."

vs.

"Islamic terrorism? WAR THEM."

because somehow reasonable domestic policy is more complex than ending a centuries-long ideological war

Not being able to solve everything is not an excuse for not trying to solve some things. There is a lot more room for reasonable policy that balances the 2nd, then the policy overreaches on the 4th and 5th.

 

1) I am not sure what else you possibly need to know what his motives/opinions are. <- Nook

2) Yeah, and his other stated motive is both being a member of Hezbollah and ISIS. His stated motive in using gay apps was to pick up men. His statements are incoherent--that's important to consider when you take weight on his statements. His actions seem to speak louder than his words, including the terrible crime he committed in the club he apparently frequented for years.

These are all things that matter. Self-hate is a harder thing to diagnose than hating the other.

 

How does the POSSIBILITY of him being a closet homosexual not reconcile with extremist Islam? I think it does perfectly. His religious/political beliefs were very anti homosexual, to the point of killing them out of sin or for mercy. It makes perfect sense that IF he was indeed homosexual, he would target other homosexuals out of personal disgust and a religious value system that absolutely calls for the death of homosexuals.

What percentage of ISIS followers do you think suffer from some form of mental illness?

What percentage of Muslim extremists to you think beat women?

I am not saying that the possibility of him being a homosexual is entirely irrelevant, but his targeting of homosexuals and with a high body count is consistent with the aims of Islamic terrorism. There are also reports that he targeted/considered other locations that were not related to sexuality.

 

Honestly, it really goes both ways. One can argue this causes that and vice versa.

Fair enough though.

 

Yeah, but he ended up choosing a club he apparently frequented for years, and in doing so, he perpetuated a whole-scale massacre of largely LGBT individuals.

These are other things (the what else) you need to know about his motive. It doesn't seem to be "Islam. CASE CLOSED.". Just like when America looks over a pattern of mass shootings it shouldn't be "Mental illness. CASE CLOSED."

 

What I'm saying though is that there's not actually evidence that he's a closet homosexual. All of his actions could have been simply to case his target, there's not really any solid evidence that he ever had homosexual leanings....but people are trying to push that narrative to make this seem like a "hate crime" instead of the terrorist attack it certainly was. It could have been both, but it was definitely a terrorist attack.

 

No it doesn't.

He has a father that is an extremist.

His friends have said his father is very strict about religion.

Some of his own friends have said he was very religious.

A gay man that knew him said that he pulled a knife on him when the issue of religion was brought up.

In high school he was reprimanded for his stance on 911.

He had had connections to extreme Islam for years.

He targeted non homosexual institutions as well.

So.... I don't see how you can argue this wasn't a terrorist attack. He had a long history of being aligned with groups that called for and supported terrorism.

 

Witnesses have testified that he was at Pulse for many years before. He used a gay app and messaged men. Somebody submitted his profile and messages he sent to the FBI.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/13/o...-was-a-pulse-regular-who-used-gay-dating-app/

 

For a radicalized Muslim, he sure doesn't seem to understand the difference between Shia and Sunni Islam, having claimed to being a member of both Hezbollah and ISIS.

 

Or it could be because he's homosexual. Or maybe even both , like the prevailing thought now...?

It will come out sooner or later with the investigation. Disregarding these other possibilities when evidence suggests they are possible is partly and prematurely sticking head in sand and maybe pushing a narrative.

 

It was a definite terrorist attack, but his rambling about the different terrorist groups that he's done makes no sense and isn't at all coherent. He's praised Shiite groups who target Sunni groups, he's pledged allegiance to Sunni groups. He's clearly is just reaching out to which ever extremist group is getting a lot of publicity. He hasn't thought through any strategy or ideology about it.

Extreme Islam has many factions that are at war with each other as well as the west. This nut job was at various times singing the praises of almost all of these groups.

 

That's not actually evidence that he was a closet homosexual, the app could have been used to find the most popular gay spots, and him going could easily be to case his future target. I mean, we know that his wife has dropped him off at that club in the past for the purposes of planning an attack and we know that many other terrorist attacks are planned for years before they are finally carried out so.....yeah. Not really any solid evidence that he was a closet homosexual.

 

We're not going to solve mental issues with people any time soon. That's for sure. The question to me, regardless of his mental state - did the prevalence of of extremist material via the internet/social media play a role in his actions or was it an excuse for a guy who was already committed to a violent act?

That might take time to answer, but regardless of that, I think it's clear that propaganda from terrorist organizations needs to be prevented from reaching it's target.

 

Uh...the messages clearly indicated he was trying to pick up men, and this is from the men that was sent them. And why would you use a gay app to research an attack on a nightclub?

Do you, too, do in-depth research on your targets by frequenting them for years, and trying to get them to come to beers with you?

 

Thank you and well said. Keeping one's head out of the sand means to keep looking at important issues in their full complexity.

Of course this asshat was influenced by radical islam, (in case people are somehow thinking that idea is being "avoided").

I'm just saying it's not clear that he had a firm connection to ISIS, based on his claiming it. Why is taking a madman's statements with a grain of salt a delusional take? If he had said "I do this for Jody Foster!" or "ALIENS!" I'm sure the same voices (ATW, sorry, looking at you in this case) would be ignoring the statements as deranged and emphasizing whatever conversations he had with radicals.

In the end, i think his own statements are probably the least useful in figuring out his motives. In writing, we call this an "unreliable narrator."

The San Bernadino case looks a lot more cut and dry in terms of radical islam than this Orlando one, at this stage. But I haven't yet read about his disney land plans, etc.

What I hate about our modern attempts at conversation is that anyone who says "wait a minute, let's get more data or consider multiple factors" is immediately called an idiot or partisan. Gets very old. Anti-scientific.

Any difficult issue requires accepting complexity to make any real progress. Our politics is uniquely crumbling in the face of that fundamental fact.

 

Looks like he was gay himself:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Male former police academy classmate of Omar Mateen says he was gay, went to gay clubs with him, asked him out. <a href="https://t.co/QcuuOjOITG">https://t.co/QcuuOjOITG</a></p>&mdash; Josh Barro (@jbarro) <a href="https://twitter.com/jbarro/status/742536559338065920">June 14, 2016</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Omar Mateen -- Strong Signs He Was Gay ... According to Ex-Wife (VIDEO) <a href="https://t.co/mzwSdPKsPJ">https://t.co/mzwSdPKsPJ</a></p>&mdash; TMZ (@TMZ) <a href="https://twitter.com/TMZ/status/742718279702040576">June 14, 2016</a></blockquote>
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Also his wife knew of his plans and claimed he tried to stop him but now:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">JUST IN: Noor Mateen, wife of Orlando shooting suspect Omar Mateen, being considered for possible criminal charges, officials tell <a href="https://twitter.com/ABC">@ABC</a>.</p>&mdash; ABC News (@ABC) <a href="https://twitter.com/ABC/status/742743258644652032">June 14, 2016</a></blockquote>
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