27 Israeli pilots to refuse missions in West Bank, Gaza

LOL, I just looked at your profile...AOL Instant Messenger Handle...Azadre .

 

There is not excuse for intentionally targeting civilians. It is wrong...it is murder. If there are specific instances where Israeli soldiers intentionally targeted civilians, they should be prosecuted. But it's quite obvious to a reasonable mind that if killing Palestinian civillians was a part of Israeli policy, there would be wholesale slaughter.


Your type of logic, which I am aware is not unqiue where you live, will keep a people down and out. Those who partake of such actions and those who support it lack humanity. The Palestinians would probably have a nation living in peace and prosperitywith Israel if they had a Mandela or Gandhi instead of an Arafat.

 

@stupid
(You think it is okay for people to blow up a bunch of teenagers at a pizza parlor, but any action taken by Israel against Palestine is criminal?)

now im debating with a guy calls himself STUPID , hihihi , YES im SURE its ok , cuz JUST LIKE I said THEY ARE OCCUPIERS . they r LIVING THERE WITH NO RIGHT , didn’t u no that b4 the English colonization took place PLAESTINE BELONGED 2 MUSLIMS , NOT THE ZIONESTS . they DON’T have the right 2 live there . so when the Palestinians do that its DEFENCE , and GOD who IS the BEST AND GREATEST , SAID that defending urself is NOT 4bidden ( both in ISLAM and CHRISTIANITY )

(I think that may be the most extreme viewpoint on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict that I have ever seen posted here. )

its NOT , not because its my opinion , because its RIGHT , and explained y .

(You would have gotten along very well with Azadre )

I DUNNO who that is and I DON’T care

(Good luck with your campaign to drive all the Jews into the sea though. )

when I say ZIONESTS I DON’T mean jews , I DON’T hate them but the zionests r takin a land with NO RIGHT .
good luck with ur stupidity… STUPID

@jackie
( chick, you are not cool )

r u ?!?!?!?

( Thanks StupidMoniker, I did not even see that among all the other crap.
You have a lot to learn. The suicide bombers are freaking idiots and if they think that killing innocent civilians will get them into heaven, they are in for a big surprise.)

u will b in a big surprise in judgment day , defending ur own country doesn’t make u a freakin idiot , the ( NOT COOL ) 1 and freakin idiot , is the 1 who thinks who defends his country is an idiot

( you have a lot to learn )

ur the 1 who has a lot 2 learn

@cohen
(There is not excuse for intentionally targeting civilians. It is wrong...it is murder.)

YES there IS an EXCUSE .. they r occupiers , its NIETHER wrong NOR a murder

( If there are specific instances where Israeli soldiers intentionally targeted civilians, they should be prosecuted. But it's quite obvious to a reasonable mind that if killing Palestinian civillians was a part of Israeli policy, there would be wholesale slaughter.)

I didn’t get these , can u plz tell me the meanings of ( specific instances ) and (wholesale slaughter ) ?

( will keep a people down and out. Those who partake of such actions and those who support it lack humanity. )

I didn’t get this , sorry can u please tell me its meaning?

( The Palestinians would probably have a nation living in peace and prosperitywith Israel if they had a Mandela or Gandhi instead of an Arafat. )

If occupiers occupied ur land , will u stand atill and say : ( ooh we want peace we want peace ) , and let them eat ur land and kill ur loved 1’s , and then u say : ( we want ghandi we want Mandela , 2 make peace )? Or u defend it till death ?
If u don’t defend it u will b DANGEROUSLY PATERIOTIC !

 

cool_chick,

We've been through these discussions before here. Were the Jews in these lands before Arabs, and then forcebly removed? Did God 'give' the lands to the Jews? Did Jews purchase a lot of the land prior to the UN partition that created Israel and Palestine?

You will probably believe whatever you want, but both sides lay claim to the land and both sides have good arguments for it, maybe one sides argument is better than the other's, but in some respects it's irrelevant... because...

The Jews will never leave Israel.

The longer this takes for the Palestinians to accept, the longer the 'zionists' ( a subset of Israelis) have to further their goals and settle in the occupied terrirtories. It's quite obvious that all suicide bombing does it galvanize the entire Israeli public against peace. After all, who could possibly imagine that peace could ensue with a people that support the murder of innocent women, children, and elderly?

Now, you think that all of these civilians are valid targets. International norms, standards and laws would disagree with you. You see, once you go down that slippery slope, where do you stop? Should the Israelis target ALL Palestinian civilians since they are attacking/supporting attacks on Israeli civilians? How many Palestinians would die if Israel used the same logic as you?

BTW, 'defending yourself' could NEVER mean blowing up innocent civilians who are no direct threat to you. If you look in your heart, you know that you're deluding (fooling) yourself.

 

I think all you guys are wasting your breaths on cool_chick. Just ignore.

 

Possibly will soon, but she's young and living in the ME. She will get a lot more consideration than what's normally given to those who support the intentional murder of civilians.

 

Sorry...Is it supporting the intentional murder of civilians when you take an action which you know will result in the death of civilians in order to accomplish your aim? Or does it only count when civilans and only civilans are your targets? Just want to clarify where you split the hair.


As for m,yself, as is known I condemn both sides in this, but ackowledge that were I an Israeli, surrounded by enemies who want my destruction, I would err on the side of being too militant as well, in all likelyhood. And were i a Palestinian, with no conventional military option available to me, but under extrem injustice and persecution at the hands of the Israelis and the world in general ( originally, at least, including years of refusing to even acknowledge their plight because they didn't meet culturaly biased definitions of a people) I would probably have responded with terrorism; it was that or cease to exist as a people, and surrender your claim to your homeland.

I say both of these things with the understanding that as I am currently morally composed each of their actions seems immoral to me, but I have had the luxury of growing up in a part of the world where, unlike both of thse peoples, my options were a little more than fight however you can or perish. I can empathize with them, and suppose that were I them I would do as they do without defending it.

 

Intentionally targeting civilians is wrong. Period.

Now on to collateral damage: all efforts should be made to avoid civilian casualties. That means: size of weapon, time of day, location, etc etc. A much grayer issue for sure, and no clear cut answer. I do not believe Israel targets civilians as a matter of policy, but I think they have probably made many avoidable or even intentional mistakes...which is unacceptable.

Both sides are in the right and both are in the wrong, but nothing is more in the wrong than suicide bombing civilians. If the Palestinians prefer an armed struggle over the peaceful method, that's fine. But there are plenty of military or infrastructure targets available to them. Their goal of terrorizing civilians on the other side will only lead to ruin for the Palestinians. The Israelis will never acquiesce due to pressure from suicide attackers... I doubt that any other people ever did.

 

Point taken.

 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...p/20030929/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Palestinian Official Laments 'Intefadeh'

By IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - The Palestinians were better off before they launched their uprising against Israel, the ousted Palestinian security chief said Monday, as thousands marched to mark the three-year anniversary of the revolt.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Mohammed Dahlan also said the Palestinians misread the dramatic changes brought by the Sept. 11 terror attacks on the United States, and that hurt their aspirations of statehood.

It is rare for Palestinians to openly criticize the "intefadeh" despite growing misgivings among some, especially those whose lives have been severely disrupted by Israeli travel bans and military raids aimed keeping suicide bombers and gunmen out of Israel.


In Tel Aviv, a prominent leader of the uprising, Marwan Barghouti, said he had no regrets about the past three years. "To die is better than living under occupation," Barghouti told an Israeli court, delivering closing arguments in his murder trial. Israel accuses him of involvement in attacks that killed 26 Israelis.


"I am proud of the intefadeh. I am proud of the resistance to the Israeli occupation," Barghouti said, addressing the judges in Hebrew.


Also Monday, Yasser Arafat (news - web sites)'s aides said the Palestinian leader has a severe case of the flu, as a result of which he has unable to keep down food for three days and has sent for his personal physician, Dr. Ashraf al-Kurdi, who was en route from Amman, Jordan.


Several years ago, Arafat developed noticeable tremors in his lower lip. Doctors have said it was a nervous tic. Media reports have speculated he suffers from Parkinson's disease (news - web sites), a degenerative neurological disease.


The Palestinian uprising broke out Sept. 28, 2000, after Israel's then-opposition leader Ariel Sharon (news - web sites), now prime minister, visited the hotly contested Jerusalem holy site known to Muslims as Haram as-Sharif and to Jews as the Temple Mount.


Violent clashes followed, and grew into violence marked by repeated terror attacks against Israelis and Israeli military strikes into Palestinian areas. A total of 2,477 people have been killed on the Palestinian side and 860 on the Israeli side.


Anniversary rallies on Sunday and Monday were relatively muted and small in scale compared to previous years.


On Monday, about 3,000 supporters of the Islamic militant group Hamas, which has carried out scores of suicide bombings, rallied in Gaza City. A Hamas leader, Ismail Hanieh, said the group is ready to halt attacks on Israeli civilians "if the Zionist occupation stops killing civilians."


However, Hamas founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin said last week his group is not interested in a truce deal the incoming Palestinian prime minister, Ahmed Qureia, wants to negotiate with Israel.


Dahlan, who served as security chief under outgoing Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, said the Palestinians' first uprising, from 1987-1993, in which demonstrators faced soldiers with rocks and bottles, was much more effective than the current revolt. The first uprising "brought us back to our homeland," said Dahlan, who along with Arafat, returned from exile in the mid-1990s.


"We were in a better position (then) than we are now, politically and internationally," Dahlan told AP in an interview at his Gaza City office.


On Sunday, the Lebanese newspaper The Daily Star quoted Dahlan as saying that taking up arms was a mistake and harmed the Palestinians' national interest.


Dahlan said the Sept. 11 attacks were a turning point for the Palestinians. "We did not understand 9-11 in a correct and fundamental way that would have allowed us to help the national interest of our people, to bring back the international legitimacy of our (Palestinian) authority," he told AP.


Dahlan said Palestinian leaders did not respond quickly enough to the changed situation. He said he made recommendations to the leadership at the time but did not elaborate.





Other critics of the uprising have said suicide bombings and shootings weakened the Palestinians' international standing at a time when the West was becoming increasingly sensitive to the threat of terrorism.

Dahlan was security chief under Abbas, who stepped down after Arafat failed to relinquish control over security forces. Dahlan, who had the support of the United States, will not be in the Qureia government.

The new Cabinet was presented to Arafat's Fatah (news - web sites) movement on Saturday. An Arafat loyalist, Nasser Yousef, will serve as interior minister, a job that grants him control over part of the security branches, with the rest commanded directly by Arafat, who also presides over a new 12-member National Security Council.

The composition of the Cabinet was relatively smooth, though Saeb Erekat, an Arafat stalwart, said he didn't know yet whether he would accept the job of minister of negotiations with Israel.

Qureia, who says he wants a broad Cabinet, was rebuffed by a radical PLO faction, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, or PFLP.

On Sunday, Qureia met with the group's leader, Ahmed Saadat, in a West Bank jail, where Saadat is being held under U.S. and British supervision for his alleged role in the assassination of an Israeli Cabinet minister in 2001.

Saadat told Qureia his group would not join the Cabinet, officials said.

At Barghouti's trial, judges said Monday that legal proceedings would not be completed by Nov. 10 as planned. Palestinian sources have said Barghouti tops a list of hundreds of inmates whose release the Lebanese guerrilla group Hezbollah is seeking as part of a prisoner swap with Israel. However, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and other officials have said Barghouti would not be released.

Kadoura Fares, a Fatah legislator, said some 400 Palestinian prisoners would be released in a German-brokered prisoner swap between Israel and Hezbollah.

Israel and Lebanon are negotiating the release of an Israeli businessman and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers, all captured in October 2000, in exchange for Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian prisoners.

 

A good follow up article on these brave pilots.
*******
The Magnificent 27
by Uri Avnery
(Saturday, September 27, 2003)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The 27 Air Force pilots informed their commander that from now on they would refuse to fulfil “immoral and illegal orders” that would cause the death of civilians. At the end of their statement, they criticized the occupation that is corrupting Israel and undermining its security."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A year and a half ago, a small group of Israelis decided to break a deeply entrenched taboo and bring up the subject of war crimes. Until then, it was self-evident that the IDF is “the most moral and humane army in the world”, as the official mantra goes, and is therefore quite incapable of such things.

The Gush Shalom movement (to which I belong) called a public meeting in Tel-Aviv and invited a group of professors and public figures to discuss whether our army is committing such crimes. The star of the evening was Col. Yig’al Shohat, a war hero shot down over Egypt in the Yom Kippur war. His damaged leg had to be amputated by an Egyptian surgeon. Upon his return, he studied medicine and became a doctor himself.

In a voice trembling with emotion, he read out a personal appeal to his comrades, the Air Force pilots, calling on them to refuse orders over which “the black flag of illegality is waving” (a phrase coined by the military judge at the Kafr Kassem massacre trial in 1957). For example, orders to drop bombs on Palestinian residential neighborhoods for “targeted liquidations”.

The speech aroused a strong echo, but the army command succeeded in “damage control”. The Air Force commander, General Dan Halutz, perhaps the most extremist IDF officer except Chief-of-Staff Moshe Ya’alon, was asked what he feels when he releases a bomb over a Palestinian neighborhood and answered: “I feel a slight bump.” He added that after such an attack he “sleeps very well.”

It seemed as if Shohat’s call had evaporated into thin air – but not any more. The seed has matured slowly. This process accelerated after a pilot released a one-ton bomb over a residential neighborhood in Gaza in order to kill a Hamas leader, abruptly ending the lives of 17 bystanders, men, women and children. Many pilots were deeply troubled by this. Now the conscience of 27 of them has spoken out.

In Israeli mythology, combat pilots are the elite of the elite. Many of them are Kibbutz-boys, who were once considered the aristocracy of Israel. Ezer Weitzman, a former Air Force commander, once coined the phrase “The Best Boys for Flying” (and immediately added, in the typical macho style of the Force, “and the Best Girls for the Flyers”.)

The pilots are bought up from an early age to believe that we are always right, and that our opponents are vile murderers. That the army commanders never make a mistake. That an order is an order, and theirs is not to reason why. That professionalism is the highest virtue. That problems have to be solved inside the Force. That one does not question the authority of the political leadership. There exists a whole mythology about the part played by the Force in the Israeli victories in all our wars: from the tiny Piper planes in 1948, the destruction of the Egyptian Air Force in the Yom Kippur war of 1973, and so forth.

The Air Force does not, of course, take in non-conformists. Candidates for flight training are scrutinized carefully. The force chooses solid, disciplined youngsters who can be relied on, both as to their character and their views, Zionists and the sons of Zionists.

Moreover, the Air Force is a clan, a sect whose members are ferociously loyal to the Force and to each other, There have never been public quarrels or signs of mutiny in the Air Force.

All this explains why the pilots struggled with themselves for so long, before they found in themselves the inner strength required for such an extraordinary, morally courageous act as publishing this appeal.

The 27 Air Force pilots informed their commander that from now on they would refuse to fulfil “immoral and illegal orders” that would cause the death of civilians. At the end of their statement, they criticized the occupation that is corrupting Israel and undermining its security.

The most senior officer among the signatories is Major General Yiftah Spector, who is also a living legend. He is the son of one of the “23 men in the boat”, a group that was sent in World War II to demolish oil installations in Lebanon (at the time under Nazi-puppet Vichy French control) and never heard of again. Yiftah Spector was the instructor of many of the present commanders of the Air Force. Altogether, the statement was signed by one general, 2 colonels, 9 lieutenant colonels, 8 majors and 7 captains.

Such a thing is unprecedented in Israel. Because of the special standing of the Air Force, the refusal evoked a much louder echo than the refusal movement of the ground troops that seems to have leveled out, for the moment, at about 500 refuseniks.

The army establishment, the real government of Israel, sensed the danger and reacted as it had never reacted before. It started a wild campaign of defamation, incitement and character assassination. The heroes of yesterday were turned overnight into enemies of the people. All parts of the government – from ex-president Ezer Weitzman to the Attorney General (who already has his eye on a seat in the Supreme Court), from the Foreign Office to the politicians of the Labor and Meretz parties – were mobilized in order to crush the mutiny of the pilots.

The counter-attack was headed by the media. Never before did they expose their real face as on this occasion. All TV channels, all radio networks and all newspaper – without exception! - revealed themselves as servants and mouthpieces of the army command. The liberal Haaretz, too, devoted its front page to a ferocious attack on the pilots, without giving space to the other point of view.

It was impossible to switch on a TV set without encountering the Air Force commander, and after him a long line of establishment figures who, one after another, condemned the pilots. Army camps were opened to the cameras, loyal officers damned their comrades as “traitors” who had “stuck a knife in our backs”. Except for one single interview on Channel 2, the “refusers” were not given any opportunity at all to explain their point of view or answer their detractors.

No doubt: the establishment is worried. Perhaps it may succeed in containing the protest this time and deterring other potential mutineers by spreading defamation, fear and punishment. But the message of the 27 has been written and nothing can change that.

With this sortie the flyers have served the State of Israel more than on any of the hundreds of others in the course of their army service. Some day Israel will recognize the huge debt it owes to the valiant 27.

link

 

@cohen
( We've been through these discussions before here. Were the Jews in these lands before Arabs, and then forcebly removed? Did God 'give' the lands to the Jews? )

I no about these stuff , and I also no this :
the Arabs controlled isreal 634-1099 , and the jews were b4 them
the english people controlled it after that (1099-1188 ) .
after that the guys from Egypt took control of it (1188-1516).
And after that the Turks took it (1516-1917)
The English colonization took place , I don’t remember when it was but
@ 1948 they gave it 2 jews

@ Cohen – Stupid – Jackie - myco - BBnP4l
AND IF U WANT ME 2 REPLY 2 THE LOGIC THAT JEWS WERE THERE 3000 YRS AGO , I WILL SAY ... BUSH SHOULD GET OUT OF THERE , ITS THE INDIANS COUNTRY AND THE REST OF YA’LL SHUD …IT’S THE INDIANS’
AND THE WHOLE EUROPE OR HALF OF IT SHOULD BE ROME .
THE SOUTH AMERICAN PPLE SHOULD GET OUT THEY R NOT NATIVES OF THERE .
AUSTRALIANS SHOULD DO THE SAME CUZ THEY R NOT NATIVES

@cohen
( Did Jews purchase a lot of the land prior to the UN partition that created Israel and Palestine?
but in some respects it's irrelevant)
I dunno the meaning of ( purchase ) and ( the 2nd sentence ) can u plz tell me ?

(The Jews will never leave Israel. )
(The longer this takes for the Palestinians to accept, the longer the 'zionists' ( a subset of Israelis) have to further their goals and settle in the occupied terrirtories.)

the suicide bombings r a REACTION of ZIONESTS CRIMES , jews WILL LEAVE PALESTINE SOONER OR LATER , PALESTINIANS WILL HAVE IT BACK , WHETHER U OR OTHERS LIKE US DONT LIKE , and SOMEDAY u WILL C , even if in the NEXT 2O YEARS , a lot of them r LEAVING because of THE SUICIDE BOMBINGS and TOURISTS average got DOWN , a lot of them r afraid 2 get out of home ( LIKE CNN SAID ALMOST A YEAR AGO – they even interviewed some zionests ) , and when they do , just REMEMBER THAT A GIRL NICKNAMED COOL_CHICK TOLD U THAT .

( It's quite obvious that all suicide bombing does it galvanize the entire Israeli public against peace )

I dunno the meaning of (galvanize ) ?

(After all, who could possibly imagine that peace could ensue with a people that support the murder of innocent women, children, and elderly? )

tell that 2 zionests

(Now, you think that all of these civilians are valid targets. International norms, standards and laws would disagree with you. You see, once you go down that slippery slope, where do you stop? Should the Israelis target ALL Palestinian civilians since they are attacking/supporting attacks on Israeli civilians? How many Palestinians would die if Israel used the same logic as you? )

1st : I dunno the meaning of ( norms ) and (slippery slope ) ?
2nd : (How many Palestinians would die if Israel used the same logic as you? )
(.. I do not believe Israel targets civilians as a matter of policy, but I think they have probably made many avoidable or even intentional mistakes...which is unacceptable._)
( Both sides are in the right and both are in the wrong, but nothing is more in the wrong than suicide bombing civilians. If the Palestinians prefer an armed struggle over the peaceful method, that's fine. But there are plenty of military or infrastructure targets available to them. Their goal of terrorizing civilians on the other side will only lead to ruin for the Palestinians. The Israelis will never acquiesce due to pressure from suicide attackers... I doubt that any other people ever did. )

as an answer 2 the q , I say : if they didn’t wanna target the Palestinian civilians they wudnt DESTROY PALESTINIANS HOMES WHILE THEY R INSIDE THEM AND BUILD HOMES 2 ZIONESTS INSTEAD . if they ( zionests ) didn’t wanna target the civilians , they wudnt KILL the BABY ( EMAN ) WITH A TANK BULLIT WHILE SHE WAS OUTSIDE WITH HER MUM DIDN’T THEY C THAT SHE WAS JUST A BABY ? IF TARGETING THE PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS WASN’T PART OD THE ZIONEST POLICY THEY WUDNT KILL THE 12YRS OLD , ( MOHAMMED ALDURRA ) IN HIS DAD’S ARMS , DIDN’T U C THE VIDEO OF THAT , IT WAS SHOWEN ON CNN .

(BTW, 'defending yourself' could NEVER mean blowing up innocent civilians who are no direct threat to you. If you look in your heart, you know that you're deluding (fooling) yourself. )

im NOT fooling myself … as much as ( the occupiers r here in my land that they occupied ) , they r a threat 2 me . cuz they r the 1s who vote 4 their officials who ( targeting civilians/ME/babies/kids/women – my loved 1’s ) is part of their policy , OF COURSE im NOT fooling myself , im DOING THE BEST 4 ME AND THE PPLE OF MY COUNTRY

(Possibly will soon, but she's young and living in the ME. She will get a lot more consideration than what's normally given to those who support the intentional murder of civilians.)
(Intentionally targeting civilians is wrong. Period )

im NOT supporting the international murder of civilians , im supporting the murder of the OCCUPIERS , who took a land WITH NO RIGHT .

( The Palestinians were better off before they launched their uprising against Israel )

I DIDN’T get this

(Mohammed Dahlan also said the Palestinians misread the dramatic changes brought by the Sept. 11 terror attacks on the United States, and that hurt their aspirations of statehood )

wot is the meaning of ( misread ) and (aspirations of statehood ) ?

(It is rare for Palestinians to openly criticize the "intefadeh" despite growing misgivings among some, especially those whose lives have been severely disrupted by Israeli travel bans and military raids aimed keeping suicide bombers and gunmen out of Israel )

wot is the meaning of (despite ) ( severly disrupted ) travel bans ?

(Marwan Barghouti, said he had no regrets about the past three years. "To die is better than living under occupation )

its true , who wants 2 live under occupation ?

n e way I didn’t get lotsa words of the news can u pl tell me the summary of it ?

there were words I asked about but u didn’t tell me , y ? u thinkim trickin u or sumthin , no im not

@macbeth
(Sorry...Is it supporting the intentional murder of civilians when you take an action which you know will result in the death of civilians in order to accomplish your aim? Or does it only count when civilans and only civilans are your targets? Just want to clarify where you split the hair )

can u plz tell me the meaning of that ?

@LIL
(gosh is it me or does that sound like Patrick Henry's "Give me liberty or give me death"? )

hihihi .lol