Bush Good, Bush Bad...

I think this was an excellent, even-handed post, Cohen. Good job.
Here I think are some things I like about GWB....
1. I like the doctrine of preemption. (Reminds me of something my old crusty Gunny, who was a Vietnam veteran said to me as a PFC, "**** the ****ing ****ers before they **** you.") I'm tired of us sitting back and waiting for us to be attacked. We reserve the right to defend ourselves, just like when Israel did when facing invasion on multiple fronts back in the 1967 Six Day War.

2. I like the tax cuts and I think they will do a lot of good, both for the economy and more importantly, will allow people to keep more of their own money that they earned.

3. I like the fact we've thumbed our noses at the UN, the obsolete ABM treaty and the Kyoto Accords. I'm tired of all these stupid treaties that aren't worth the paper they're printed on handcuffing our ability to act in our own best interests, be it on missile defense or by not destroying our industry to supposedly combat "global-warming."

Now for the stuff about GWB that I flat out hate and the reason I'll vote Libertarian come next November:

1. Patriot Act- the biggest attack on personal liberties ever launched by our govt since Abe Lincoln suspended habeus corpus during the Civil War. The solution to the terrorism/security issue is simple: watch the Muslims in this country. But in our politically correct era, we can't do that, it's "racial profiling." But if they are the only ones ramming airliners into buildings, it stands to reason that if you wanted to catch a terrorist, you'd look at them first.

2. Vast spending- I'm very concerned with the fact that Bush signed into law two wasteful, liberal bills (the education bill and the farm bill) that are bloated with waste. I also did not see the need for yet another govt. agency (Homeland Security Agency) and federalizing airport screeners (thus vastly expanding the size of govt.). And don't get me started on that stupid prescription drug benefit that will bankrupt us. 400 billion is just the beginning on the cost of that boondoogle.

3. Bush supported a bill to give amnesty to the millions of illegal immigrants and this is probably one of the most obvious attempts to pander to the votes of Hispanics, who will vote Democrat anyhow.

 

Very well said Cohen

 

Good luck, Cohen, regarding the last part of your post.

I'm not going to try to deconstruct your post like treeman, andymoon or MacBeth might (although it's their privilege). That's not my style, so I'll just give a quick opinion here...


You mentioned "drunk Teddy". We all know he had a problem with alcohol. So did G.W. Bush. Both are now sober, by all accounts. So why the slam?

You say that, "Bush is generally honest, and believes he does the right thing for the United States". I disagree with the first part and the second part I'm having my doubts about. I've been saying for many months now that he is a victim of bad advice. He's done nothing to rectify what I see as a problem more and more obvious. So I'm beginning to wonder just what his agenda is. And it may not be honest and it may not be considered "right for the United States" by this President.

You say that, "Bush may be somewhat savvy, but he's not overly bright. He's also ignorant of international politics and thus lacks a vision for the US in global policy (could be considered a serious concern as he is the leader of the Hyperpower)". I agree with that.

You mention, "I still have hope that the tax cuts will help spur the economy somewhat. I don't think that they were hands-down 'unfair', but I'm still open to the argument that the uber-rich may have recieved too much of a cut. Wher(e) are the numbers to prove that? I only heard political garbage". The numbers adding up to 1 trillion dollars plus added to the deficit in only 2 years is not political garbage. It is a nightmare... not only for the country today, but for my children when they are paying the interest on it. I don't remember FDR cutting taxes during WWII. Do you? Don't you find this policy more than a little incredible? I do.

You say that, "Being an MBA and small business owner, I'm somewhat business oriented. But Bush's consistency in supporting business interests over consumer and the environment concerns me...there has to be balance. After all, we are all also consumers and the environment is for our children. This, I agree with.

You say that, "I keep one eye on the Patriot Act, but am not worried about it until I see either concrete evidence or at least indications that we have diminished our rights. Until that, I refuse to tie the hands of those who are trying to protect us". I don't agree with this at all. I think the Act is a clear and present danger to our many freedoms that we take for granted. Of course, that is my opinion.

You say you're, "not worried about the Halliburton crap. In business, we give important contracts to those we know and trust. That said, it would still have been preferable to have presented some measure of impartiality. I am not convinced that Halliburton business has had any bearing on policy". This surprises me. Since when is it the policy to not open contracts of this nature for competitive bidding? Especially when your Vice President has such a connection to the company? It's not like this is developing the F-117 in secret or anything like it. It's construction contracts, for crying out loud. It reeks of "paying off" your friends. Again, in my opinion.

You say that, "Kennedy's claim of 'bribe' is a way to reframe something that we do ALL of the time....in a negative light. Of course we provide financial support to nations that assist us in our international policy - that's not the issue - but of course when it is determined that that is what is taking place, somehow his assertion that it's wrong will gain validity." He is saying that this is secretly taking place so the Administration can claim "broad international support" for this war. Again, in my opinion, it is quite different and a valid concern.

We want honest and open government, after all.
Don't we?



Thanks for an interesting thread, Cohen. I have to give my fingers a rest!

 

Excellent post Cohen.

Deck...I'm not sure Cohen was debating each point. Just highlighting some issues on which he agrees with Bush, and others where he does not. Kind of the point of the thread. There are plenty of other threads in which we debate each point.

Is there anything on which you agree with Bush??

I find it curious that some can, on one hand argue vehemently against the Patriot Act, and at the same time lambast Bush for not cracking down on security pre 9/11. Would they have acccepted restrictions when most ordinary citizens could not even have imagined an event such as 9/11?? Also, some have argued against Iraq on the basis that Korea was worse. Would they support a 'pre-emptive strike' on Korea then?

Not trying to debate these issues here...just pointing out inconsistencies.

On the other side, other 'business interest' posters seem to have no concern with mounting deficits coupled with tax cuts as long as its by the 'right' party. Shouldn't there be some balance between spending and revenue (at least over a reasonable time frame), or does this not apply to conservative governments?

To quote a wise man (at least wise for today

"I hope some introspection here would lead to more honest, open and helpful discussions and less political rhetoric and diatribes."

It would certainly raise the level of discourse here in the D&D.

 

Yes, let's raise the discussion pie higher. ...

Whoops. That didn't help.

 

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/allbushcut.pdf

The top 1% gets 17% reduction while the bottom 99% gets 5% reduction

The top 1% reduces their share of total taxes by 2.4% while the rest of us gets a 2.4% INCREASE

 

Did you read my post? I'm pointing out where I agree and disagree with Cohen. I complimented him on the thread.

You want me to lay on my back like a puppy for a tummy rub??

I agree with Bush that he used to be governor of Texas.

 

I'd like to watch the Jetsons while eating moon pies and drinking cold glasses of chocolate milk with George W. Afterwards would go outside and play some wiffle ball.

 

You do not understand who pays taxes in America. The top 1% of Americans pay 37% of all tax receipts Uncle Sam receives. The top 5% pay 56%. The top 50% of wage earners in America pay 96% of every penny Uncle Sam receives. In fact the bottom half of the country pays only 4% of what Uncle Sam gets.

Take your class warfare someplace else. Thaaaaanks.

http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/00in01rt.xls

 

class warfare?

the poor against the rich? you seriously arent making that argument are you?

oh those strugling rich people with their million dollar houses and bentleys....the oppressive poor are hurting you so much

the top 1% of this country have seen their Taxes go down over the past 30 years while their incomes have risen 150%

class warfare? HAHAHA what a bunch of crap

you label people as being unpatriotic and unamerican for critizing the war, but it is the middle and lower class kids that are off doing the fighting, it is a time of war, so cutting the taxes on the rich is waging "class warfare" ?

blulsiht

 

- Did we not just recently go back to the U.N. "asking" for military/monetary help w/ Iraq?

- So why don't we just put the Muslims in "internment camps" like we did the Japanese? We better watch the Koreans in the U.S. too. You know, with them being part of that "Axis of Evil" clique. And throw in the French & Germans in the U.S. under the watchful eye of Big Brother. They haven't been too friendly with us lately you know. Forgot about the Chinese in the U.S.! Can't forget about those scoundrels. And I've never really trusted Canada. There is just something about those guys........

 

Actually,

You agreed that Bush was not bright, and was one sided for business.

You disagreed with Cohen's (possibly tempid) support for or willingness to consider the Patriot Act, Halliburton, Tax cuts, Bush's honesty, and possible over-spin by Kennedy.

Essentially, you came down on Bush on all points. You may be right on all issues and you're generally not one of the unequivical party-line posters -- I just didn't want this to digress to yet another Bush bad/Bush good match.

I thought Cohen's point was good.

I usually find things I agree with (and disagree with) with all parties. Here we spin things so much it gets dizzying.

Didn't mean to get personal

 

I figured you couldn't respond to the numbers. Try again.

 

We went back to the UN because Colin Powell for some assinine reason believes in it, even though it is a useless waste of time.

I never said put them into camps, but to simply subject them to a little more attention, at airports and the like. Thanks for putting words in my mouth and calling me a Nazi in so many words. You can not deny that only Muslims are blowing up airplanes, so why not simply search them rather than take some little old blue-haired lady out of line to conduct a full cavity search, just to make it "fair?" If they are much more likely to blow up airplanes, shouldn't they be subject to more scrutiny?

 

Lower and Middle-class provide the vast majority of our soliders that are fighting in Iraq

we are at war

lets reduce the tax burden on the rich and increase the burden on the rest of us

but opposing that idea is waging Class Warfare?

you make no sense

bush is reducing winter fuel assistance and federal subsidies for needy Americans plus a whole host of other reductions in programs used by the poor.

But those rich people sure need more money

class warfare is right!

 

bigtexxx, seriously here, you seem like a very bright guy. But you need to add another note or two to your repertoire. In your heart, are you honestly telling us you feel that the rich people in this, one of the richest nations in history, are put upon? We can play with numbers all day long and do whatever we like with them, but tell me what you believe concerning the poor and working classes in America.

 

I am in favor of reducing the tax burdens on all Americans. I take umbrage, however, when others claim that the rich are responsible for most of the tax savings under a tax relief plan. Well of course, they are, because they are the ones who pay most of the taxes!